U.S. Brings Back the .45

Strategy Page ^ | January 27, 2006

[John Jorsett]

After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense plans to buy 645,000 JCPs.

SOCOM will, with input from other branches, handle the evaluation and final selection. This will take place this year, and if the military moves with unaccustomed alacrity, troops could start getting their JCPs next year. But don’t hold your breath.

[Henchster]

From the article: "Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches."

Hmmm. Just coincidentally, the highlighted dimensions are PRECISELY those of the H&K MK23 - which just happens to have all of the above detailed features:

H&K MK23

[esopman]

Yep. Terrific piece. I put Pachmayr grips on a .357 S&W N frame 'highway patrolman' (pinned & recessed) with a 6" barrel. You can buy 180 gr. rounds for it and not worry about stopping power. The difference between the energy delivered on target by it and a 9 mm is, well, 'striking.' The accuracy is better than I can hold. If 6 rounds in the black at 25 m won't get me out of trouble...then the the Good Lord didn't want me out. Thanks for the picture.

[hiredhand]

Ping!

[Fido969]

The 1911 is a hard gun to shoot, it really takes some practice to get the grip, hold and trigger pull just right.

But they are accurate gun, and favored by competive shooters.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Darn, my picture of the...

[D Rider]

Just change the bullet to a hollow point and the 9mm would do the trick.

HP's are illegal in combat, similar to CS gas in that respect. Therefore it is only useful against illegal combatants and US citizens.

[jess35]

I agree, but there is a difference between a 9mm JHP and a .45 FMJ. The Hague Convention banned the use of dum-dum rounds. a dum-dum round is modified soft point...not a hollow point round. I see no reason why the US Military should be bound to an inaccurate description of ammunition.

[Euro-American Scum]

Glock has made at least 3 alterations on the Quiet to the design of the barrel to address the issue but has refused to publicly acknowledge that there is a problem.

This sounds remarkably like the now world-famous Glock rail design/manufacturing flaws on their E-series serial number guns in 2002. They kept that pretty quiet as well, only informing law enforcement agencies about it. I guess the prospect of a cop using a Glock getting killed due to a FTF as a result of this flaw -- and the deep pockets lawsuit that could have ensued -- got their attention.

If I hadn't heard about this from an LE officer in the neighborhood, I still wouldn't know about it.

That's Glock for you. When you're the big dog on the block, you don't have to be accountable to your customers, I guess.

[Double Tap]

By the way, the guys who worked there must not have been doing this long, as the 1911 was/is one of the worst offenders of the case failure blowout. I can't count the number of times some guy in IPSC matches would blow a case in his 1911 from a double charge of powder.

[Recon Dad]

Did you ever try the SOCOM?

[ghostcat]

No I'm not relying on the gun zone for my evaluation. I'm relying on my own and other smiths evaluations. The problem is that the chamfering on the barrels used on the earlier versions of the glock .45s and .40s left too much of the case unsupported causing the catastrophic failure of the case and gun. This is something that can happen in any gun with a chamfered chamber mouth, if the chamfer is done incorrectly.
To my knowledge glock has changed the chamfer on the .45 and .40 at least twice to address the problem, it appears that the last change was effective. What disturbs me about glock is the failure to acknowledge that there was a problem and their attempts to tar anyone who claims that the problem existed. To be fair that was probably a reaction inspired by their lawyers.
In regards to the portland incident, it was not a single incident but was in fact a case where 3 incidents occurred in a 2 year period of time. It also involved 3 different lots of commercial ammo, as after each failure the Portland Pd pulled all the ammo from the same lot as was involved in the catastrophic failure. In addition there have been several other failures throughout the U.S. and at least one in Italy.

[jess35]

You might want to advise your son that pistols aren't designed to "knock someone down". He might want to carry a baseball bat instead. ;)

[Phsstpok]

B-ig U-gly F-at F-ellow?

It's not the word "fat" that I have heard replaced by another word. That would leave "fellow." You get the drift?

[xzins]

Continual reports that nothing less than the .45 will surely stop an enemy soldier.

We already knew this, but I guess it's good to have it reaffirmed.

[hiredhand]

OH! NO kidding?! I hadn't heard that! Do you have a link to this?..maybe a notice by Federal? I'd like to see it. ...NOT because I don't believe you, but because now Glock has some bad press to overcome on account of this because a LOT of people think these failures were due to a design flaw of their hardware.

That guy working in the shop that day told me that they'd taken in half a dozen over about 90 days which had suffered damage on account of blown case heads. The guy who we saw returning the pistol that day had an "owie" on his shooting hand, but nothing to cry over.

[Euro-American Scum]

That is, the military did not procure any new M1911's after 1945. So what you were shooting was a gun that had been used and abused for many years and was probably rebuilt once or twice. It was half worn out.

My shooting partner picked up an M1911A1 built by Remington Rand in 1944 for the war effort. When he got it, it was a real dog. FTF, FTE problems all the time. Couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. After about six months with a custom smith in the area, it's reasonably reliable and accurate.

My 3-year-old Para Ordnance P14, Colt M80 and Wilson Combat full-size all shoot straight and true and are virtually as reliable as my Glocks.

The difference between newly manufactured weapons with state of the art design features and old .45s that have been used, abused and neglected.

[Bender2]

I agree!

[Cheburashka]

Just change the bullet to a hollow point and the 9mm would do the trick.
---
War crime under the Hague Convention.

[jess35]

It's not true. There isn't a lot of difference between racking the slide on a 1911 and on a 9mm. Now recoil might have been a deciding factor.

[D Rider]

Stop physically dumbing down the military and police by forcing them to maintain troops of lesser statue (you can read this as little girls if you'd like), and then train the rest to use this quite low recoil (ever shoot a .454 Casull or a .44 magnum for that matter. .45 ACP is a cakewalk in comparison)

Agreed. The .45 is the most versatile round out there. Just issue subsonic rounds for the girls.