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[Vanity] Does this stuff belong in an 8th Grade Science Textbook? You tell me.
Spiff | 21/1/2005 | Spiff

Posted on 12/01/2005 11:27:55 AM PST by Spiff

I know that this may be a long read, there's a lot of content here, but I think that many FReepers will find the information here interesting and disturbing. I will appreciate any help I can get with this situation.

My wife and I have been homeschooling our children since they started schooling. We have 5th, 6th, and 8th graders. Recently, we made the tough decision to enroll them in a local Charter School. In Arizona, a Charter School is a privately run, smaller, more focused public school. It provides parents with school choice and some competition between the schools. Although, right now, the Charter Schools are the red-headed step children and are regularly passed over in funding, resources, etc. in favor of the megaschools. We favored the small school environment and found a Charter School that we thought met our minimum standards. We went into this with our eyes open and met with the Principal and the School Director and asked many specific questions related to policies, teachers, environment, curriculum, underlying philosophy, discipline, etc. We knew that we were going to have to unteach our children some of the garbage that they would inherently be taught in any sort of public school and we were prepared to do that.

They've been in the school less than a month and we've already run into problems with what is being taught and what we were told they would be taught. We've dealt with some, but the biggest one came up last night.

My 8th grader is not allowed to bring her Science textbook home. The reason is that the Science teacher purchased the textbooks with his own money and doesn't want any to be lost or defaced. In fact, there's not enough books to go around so some students must double up on a textbook. I understand this, to some extent, and actually see a benefit with my daughter having to take copious notes to keep up. That note-taking skill will serve her well later on.

We help our children every night with their homework. At this time, if you look at raw man hours, we probably spend more time helping them with their homework now than we spent teaching them and helping them with their homework when we were homeschooling, but I digress. Anyway, my 8th grader had some questions about an essay that she was assigned to write for her science class. She started reading off some things that were supposed to be about human ecology and said that she was supposed to write why she agreed or disagreed with each statement. Now, in what science class do you write why you agree or disagree with the First Law of Thermodynamics? In the 8th grade?!

The book is called "Global Science" and it is the 3rd Edition published by Kendall/Hunt in 1991 and authored by John W. Christensen." I can find no other science books authored by this person.

Many of those "laws and principles" had little to do with science, were value statements, and some were plainly offensive. But, whether one agrees or disagrees with the philosophy behind some of these statements, many don't belong in a science book. This piqued my interest and I read through the "laws and principles" thoroughly and then Googled them.

These are the "laws and principles" that are printed in this textbook. I quote them here so that you can read them and I enthusiastically invite comment about them:

THE FUNDAMENTAL LAWS AND PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN ECOLOGY

There is no reference in the book to where this crap came from. Disturbing is the fact that bizarre value statements are mingled with scientific principles like the Laws of Thermodynamics. When I Googled, I could not find any legitimate science sites, papers, or articles which contained this set of principles or anything close to them. What I did find was that every site that had this set or a slightly reworded set were Pagan and Witchcraft sites. No, really. I'm not looking for Satanists under every bed or in every closet, but this is what I found and it surprised me.

Here's a list of some of the websites which contain this set of principles or slightly reworded versions:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos144.htm
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/fundamental_laws_human_ecology.php
http://textfiles.group.lt/occult/echolgyl.txt
http://www.darkwitches.co.uk/haven/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=20
http://www.ladyoftheearth.com/thelaws/laws-01.txt
http://www.paganality.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=11577
http://www.junos-horizon.com/documents/247.html (Wicca site)
http://paganrealm.tripod.com/misc/hum-eco-laws.html
http://groups.msn.com/AlbanysMysticCircle/listmagicktopics.msnw
http://crypt.eldritchs.com/tome/0617.html (Witchy Crypt)
http://www.esotericdotcom.com/categoria.asp?categoria=Human (Directory of articles about magic, divination, alchemy... )
http://www.witcheswell.com/text/thelaws/laws-01.txt
http://www.funet.fi/pub/culture/occult/BoS/0601-700.txt

The only reference I could find, and I found it on several of the sites, was to something called "Ecomagic - Book of shadows" and it showed that this set of principles was on Page 616 of that book. What does "Ecomagic" have to do with science? When I compare what was printed in the science book with the reworded versions found on the websites, it appeared to me that what was in the science book was simply a cleaned up version, with some grammatical fixes, of what was published in Pagan literature and published online. Now, of course, I need to know which was published first. The book was published in 1991 and had earlier editions. Did the Pagan sites get the statements from this "science" book, or did the "science" book AND the Pagan sites get the list of principles from some other source that I can't find? Maybe (probably) this is a distraction, but I think it is noteworthy and disturbing.

These principles are not just included in a sidebar or appendix. No, instead they are at the end of Chapter 1 and they are prefaced with this comment:

The Earth we live on has its problems, but basically it is a world of opportunity. To achieve a life of comfort and happiness, it is important to understand the "laws and principles" discussed in this text. They will be emphasized throughout the course. Upon completion, you should know them well.

The author makes it clear right here that these so-called "principles" are going to pervade the "science" text and that the goal of the text is not to teach science, but to ensure that the students accepts these "principles".

The author reinforces this in his comments at the beginning of the textbook:

You are living at an exciting time. In the next several years extremely important decisions are going to be made, and you will play a role in making them. These decisions will affect: the position of your country in the world of nations; your feeling of who you are and how you relate to others and the environment around you; the standard of living you will have; and , the amount of personal freedom you will enjoy. Many of these deicions are related to energy, resources, and environment.

How well we make these decisions in large part depends upon how well we understand the issues. It is the purpose of this course to build basic background for understanding energy/resource/environment benefits and problems. This is not just another science course. The problems we will be dealing with are in the here and the now. You will find that the road you travel as you work through these pages can be an exciting journey--if you have the proper attitude.

Science is a tool at our disposal. It is a powerful tool, and it will play an important role at this turning point in time. What is exponential growth? How bad is the energy/resource/environmental problem? Does the Earth have a carrying capacity? Can we live better with less? What are our alternatives? How do we get there from here?

Studying these materials won't provide all the answers, but you will be much better prepared to face many issues because of your experiences in this course.

This makes it abundantly clear what the goals of the "science" text are. By mingling science (a "tool at our disposal") with a collection of socialistic, radical environmentalist, and zero-population growth garbage, as long as student has the "proper attitude", will mold them to have the mindset that the author intends. The goal is not to provide the student with an understanding of a specific science because, as the author states, "this is not just another science course."

It gets worse.

Chapter 3 is all about Growth and Population. In fact, population problems appear throughout the entire text. The references used are typically the Ehrlich's disproven zero-population junk science philosophy. References also come from the Club of Rome's 1971 "Limits to Growth" study which is more zero-population, one-worlder garbage. Chapter 3 is quite offensive as it compares humans to bacteria, discusses abortion as an acceptable form of population control, and even includes diagrams of several birth control methods and devices. So offensive was this chapter that the original school who used this book removed the most offensive 10 pages. I found out about that content while using Google and reading a fairly positive review of the book and that content. I spoke to the Director of my children's school and he knew nothing about the book, its contents, and the excised portion.

Throughout the book are several political cartoons. One shows an Earth covered with people, so many so that they are hanging on the bottom and some are tumbling off the bottom into space. Others depict a cowboy, an indian, and a dead buffalo and it mocks the evil and stupid cowboy for wanting to slaughter more buffalo. Another shows a baby with a globe for a head labeled "population" with a big mouth and a farmer bringing food to the baby. Each progressive frame shows the baby's head and mouth growing larger, the farmer's bushel of food also growing larger, then finally the farmer has aged, the bushel is empty, and it appears the huge mouth is going to swallow the farmer who has stumbled to the ground. Another cartoon shows factories with stacks belching smoke, denuded trees, clouded skies, pipes spewing pollution into a waterway, and dead animals around it. The evil suit-wearing capitalist has his arm around his son and is captioned as saying, "Someday, my boy, this will all be yours." Pure propaganda.

Further propaganda found in the book includes NASA images of the so-called "ozone hole" over the South Pole. The images are displayed to make the student believe that the "hole", which is in fact just a natural period thinning, is there at all times. It makes no mention of the natural processes (volcanic activity, cold season weather differentials, solar cycles) that actually cause the thinning. Another example, in the chapter called "Food, Agriculture, and Population Interactions" shows a shrouded women with an emaciated dead-looking naked infant in her lap. The caption says, "Ten million children around the world live like this." This is science?

In the same chapter that contained the starved baby photo, is the section on "Global Cooperation." And I quote:

Surviving children are the parents' only hope for care in their old age. But how do you enable their children to live longer? How do you guarantee care for the elderly? This probably can't be accomplished without some redistribution of wealth, either within a country or between countries. China did it, but with violent revolution. Can redistribution take place without a revolution? Some say it can...

At present we have enough food, and we have the means to deliver it to those that are starving. What we lack is the ability to communicate with others who have different beliefs, attitudes, and world views. Skill in conflict resolution seems to be our real lack. We must pledge to keep working at improving it.

This is science!!? I don't think so.

This stuff is not just hidden in the text of the chapters, but is included in the exercises at the end of each chapter and likely will be on the tests. The students are still in chapter 1 and the teacher has already assigned an essay on one of the most offense portions of the book.

The teacher of this class is an outspoken atheist. The essay assignment for students to write how they agree or disagree with the principles and laws in the 1st chapter appears to be an attempt for the students to expose their immature (they're 8th graders) disagreements with the statements so that the teacher can categorize the students, soften them up by openly or subtly attacking their disagreements or beliefs, and/or by opening then up to criticism from their peers.

I have made an appointment with the school's director to discuss these matters. I'm looking for further information from those who would like to comment on the book and its content. As you can see, I've already formed a strong basis for my arguments that I will use with the school's director and the science teacher. I would appreciate further input to help strengthen those arguments or to develop new ones to ensure that this problem is promptly corrected.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2sick4words; communism; darwinism; ecoweenies; greenies; motherearth; scienceeducation; socialism; textbook; ungodly; wiccan; witchcraft; yankthemoutnow; zeropopulation
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To: happyhomemaker
I really admire you for standing up for your convictions but just a humble reminder that your precious little girl is at the center of this storm.

Thank you for that reminder. I'm trying to be careful not to use her to get at the teacher as he will pay if he used her to get back at us. She is fully aware of what is going on and we've talked to her at length about the things he might try to do to get back at us through her. She knows what to expect and what to do.

Last night I purchased a small digital recorder that we will now use whenever we have contact with the teacher. Likely, my daughter will bring it to school with her too so that she can record the teacher when he's being nutty and teaching nutty stuff. Once we have the evidence on tape, we have further proof of the problems with his science curriculum and what he's teaching in class. He's not going to get away with it and I want it to stop.

201 posted on 12/07/2005 7:59:46 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff

You are not alone. My children are in a private Catholic school and they have very similar stuff in their Math, Science and History books.

It is very frustrating.


202 posted on 12/07/2005 8:03:58 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: x5452
>>>>less of this crap in private catholic schools.

Ahem.

Not true.

Last week my son had a section and exercise in his MATH book on how to petition the principal to install special needs accessibility throughout the school.

Class activity.

No kidding.
203 posted on 12/07/2005 8:07:51 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: mlc9852
I wouldn't let my children by taught by an atheist. This is what you get.

Your "logic" here is worse than anything in that textbook by far.

204 posted on 12/07/2005 8:13:41 AM PST by BagelFace (BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOGA!!!!)
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To: BagelFace

My logic isn't important. My kids are.


205 posted on 12/07/2005 8:36:28 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

I agree. The fact that I wasn't talking about you kids notwithstanding, I agree 100%.


206 posted on 12/07/2005 9:01:22 AM PST by BagelFace (BOOGABOOGABOOGABOOGA!!!!)
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To: kidd
1. I am in awe of your patience. Really. 2. Considering the infantile behavior of the teacher, you should fully expect this teacher to go nuclear on your daughter. I would think that he is completely capable of yelling at and attempting to publicly embarass her. Considering that he has (more than once) brought up legal issues, he will probably attempt to provoke you to violence. a. bring a recording device, if allowed. b. bring an adult witness other than your wife. c. prepare your daughter for the worst. d. have your daughter prepare any friends she might have in the class. e. continue to keep your patience. An attack on your daughter will require a whole new level of patience that you may not be prepared for, especially if she is brought to tears.

Thank you for your advice. We purchased a digital recorder last night and will use it from now on.

This teacher is mean. This is what my daughter and other students report. He's already brought my daughter to tears on the first or second day of class, before we had this issue with the textbook. When we visited class yesterday, you could see that the students are very fearful of him. The first student who gave her report was very nervous and said, "I don't know if this is what you are looking for" to the teacher. She had somewhat of a hard time getting through her presentation and finally started crying and sat down and put her head down on her desk.

My daughter reports that her friends in class told her that the teacher had NEVER done oral presentations the way he did yesterday. Normally, he berates and belittles them, interrupting their presentations and reducing some of them to tears. This is exactly why I was concerned with this assignment to discuss the bizarre "laws and principles" in the textbook. I just knew that the teacher was going to use the opportunity to destroy any objections the students had to the statements. The teacher can expect my wife, me, or both of us to be sitting in on all the oral presentations until this assignment is finished. We're going to thwart his attempts to brainwash these kids and he's hopping mad about it. If he was teaching out of a regular science book and sticking to the approved curriculum and lesson plan (and state standards, for that matter) we would have no problem. He's not. He injecting bizarre new age religion garbage.

207 posted on 12/07/2005 9:15:05 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: BagelFace

Well, I'm glad we agree.


208 posted on 12/07/2005 9:19:19 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: cornelis
....... I started questioning things in kindergarten.........

LOL

209 posted on 12/07/2005 10:01:00 AM PST by DoctorMichael (The Fourth-Estate is a Fifth-Column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: cornelis
I started questioning things in kindergarten.

Best three years of my life.

210 posted on 12/07/2005 10:01:55 AM PST by Godzilla (Jesus - The REASON for the SEASON)
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To: RogueIsland; mlc9852; Question_Assumptions; polymuser; MineralMan; Tax-chick; Godzilla; ...
UPDATE: When I dropped off my kids at the school this morning, I poked my head into the admin office so that I could remind the principal that my wife would be attending the science class later that morning. And to ask for a copy of the current lesson plan for that science class. He was tied up in a meeting, I was told, so I told the receptionist to pass on the message. She told me that he was in a meeting with the head of the curriculum committee as well as the science teacher. Sure enough, I look down the little hallway through the open door to the principal's office, and there was the science teacher. He was standing in front of the desk and he did not look happy. So, they are doing something about the issue and, it appears, the science teacher is not pleased.

My wife attended the science class today. She brought her little recorder. Before class started, the science teacher had another teacher watch the class while he lectured my wife. He said that he would not permit her to sit in his class if she was there only to find fault. He said that she could sign up as a teacher's aide and help teach the class, but that he would not tolerate her "negative" influence. She basically said, "whatever..." Then, he said he was angry that I had "demanded" a copy of the current lesson plan and that all I had to do was ask for it and he would have given it to me. She corrected him and said that I had not demanded anything, but simply asked the principal for the current lesson plan. He then started the class.

Guess what? No oral presentations were given today. He rearranged the whole class schedule, announced that the test on the whole chapter that was going to be next week was now going to be tomorrow and then he launched into a review of the science portions of the chapter.

This tactic is not going to work because my wife is prepared to sit in that class until that "science" textbook is out of the school.

Here's where the story gets even more interesting. In the middle of class, another teacher (my son's teacher) came to the classroom to get my wife. She left her purse there with the recorder going and went to the principal's office with the teacher. She said that my 6th grader son was not in any kind of trouble, but that there was an issue that she could help resolve.

Yesterday, my son came home after school and wanted to talk to me about what he'd learned in History class. They are studying World History and they're currently on the set of chapters about World Religions. He had come home Monday night with a bunch of spelling words which were words from such religions as Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Daoism, and Hinduism. We noticed nothing related to Christianity. My wife asked the teacher about that on Tuesday and she was more than comfortable with the teacher's plans to cover Christianity next week. In fact, the class is currently reading The Chronicles of Narnia and will be attending the film as a field trip on Friday. Additionally, the symbolism in the book and film has been discussed with the class.

In History class yesterday one of the high school teachers had come over and given a presentation on Islam. This teacher served as a Christian missionary in an Islamic country. He mentioned that he had to do so secretly or he could have been killed for trying to convert Muslims. He showed the a prayer rug, showed them how Muslims pray, and discussed other aspects of their religion and culture.

In my discussion with my son, who, by the way learned almost everything he needed to learn about Islam on 9/11, we discussed why the Christian missionary had to keep his mission secret. We discussed the Quran and the portions in it which proscribe the killing of those who convert Muslims to Christianity and to those Muslims who do convert to Christianity. We also discussed the head chopping habit with which Islam seems to be so enamored. We've discussed Islam before, he's seen the news reports about the hostages who have been killed on video by the "peaceful" representatives of the religion of Islam, and he's listened with me to Michael Savage in the car when Savage has been ranting about Islam. He is fully aware of what Islam is all about.

Even though the teacher was not pushing Islam, apparently my son took issue with him painting such a pretty picture of Islam by leaving out essential details.

The reason my son was in the principal's office is because his class was assigned to write a 'Thank You' letter to the teacher who gave the presentation. My son took the opportunity of that letter assignment to register his protest of Islam and the pretty picture that the teacher had drawn. He said something along the lines of, "Thank you for coming to our class and giving your presentation on Islam. It was nice, but you didn't talk about the slavery, torture, and killings that happen within Islam. You should have. Thanks anyway."

Apparently, the teacher questioned the tactfulness of the 'Thank You' letter my son wrote. My son felt VERY strongly about this issue and took his teacher's comments as an attack on his firm beliefs. He saw something that was wrong and he spoke up, through the letter, about it. My son can be somewhat emotional when he gets angry or upset, and apparently he shed a few tears as he defended himself against what he thought was an attack on his statements about Islam.

The teacher knew that my wife was on the school grounds, so she decided it was best to get everyone together and discuss the issue. The got everyone into the principal's office and explained to my son that he was not in trouble. He was told that he can keep his letter exactly as he wrote it. The principal told him that he was quite proud of my son for standing up so firmly for his beliefs, but that the method he used may not have been the best way to express himself. It was suggested that if he wanted to alter portions of the letter, that he may want to instead of attacking the teacher for leaving out the bad side of Islam, to have asked the teacher to come back and discuss the things like "slavery, torture, and killings" that happen in Islamic countries. He was sent back to class.

Now, I fully understand why my son chose to protest the way he did. He's attended protests and counterprotests with me. He's seen me in action and all of my kids love a good protest. They're just like I was when I was their age even though my parents were not politically motivated at all and I only once saw a protest when I was a kid, and it was against my church.

(Digression: When I was about my son's age I attended a large conference of my church in a city about 200 miles from my house. My whole family went. We had a great spiritual experience and walked out of the conference one day just filled with the Spirit. We came out and were assailed with all kinds of noise. This was during the push for ERA and my Church was against it. The conference site was surrounded by angry leftists protesting our opposition to ERA. They were chanting, had signs, and there was even a low-flying aircraft carrying a protest banner. There were protestors screaming at us. There were others standing just outside the doors of the arena who were passing out pamphlets to those attendees who were coming out. One tried to put a pamphlet in my hand and said to me, "You need one of these." I said, "No I don't", and I held my Scriptures up and said, "I only need these." I just love that look that a leftist gets when someone stands up to him like that. This was my first taste of it.

But I digress...on with the update.)

So, now I have to decide if I back the teacher up and tell my son that he should have been a little more polite. Or if I applaud his protest. I can tell you right now that I'm really proud of him for sticking up for his beliefs even after he thought his teacher was attacking him. The teacher and the principal told my wife that they were thrilled to see such strong convictions in a child that age and that most of the kids in the school don't even know what they believe in, let alone have the ability to strongly advocate for their position.

The principal told my wife that he wished that my son had brought up the issues in class during the presentation. My son is somewhat shy, unlike my daughters, so he probably just stayed politely quiet. The principal said that the school has to be careful about what they teach when it comes to religion - any religion - but that if a student asks about a certain religious topic that, by law, the teacher CAN discuss and teach on that topic. Now, I don't know why the principal felt that the very real situation of slavery, torture, and killings in the Islamic culture was one of those sensitive "religious" topics, but that is what he said.

I hope my son does decide to invite the teacher back to the class to present something on the issues he raised in his 'Thank You' letter to the teacher. That way, the whole class can be educated on the reality of Islam and its violent, oppressive culture.

Science class was over after this situation was dealt with. My wife retrieved her purse and the recorder. We haven't listened to what happened after she left yet, but we will.

She was told that the "science" book would only be used until the students were done with the test on this chapter. That it was gone, at least for the 8th grade. She didn't press for details about the 9th and 10th grades, but we will get that information as well.

211 posted on 12/07/2005 11:30:20 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
Press for details, and make sure wife (or you) keep going to the class.

You may have to make sure the teacher does not retaliate against your kid out of spite.

And make sure to always have that tape recorder rolling.

212 posted on 12/07/2005 11:35:32 AM PST by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Spiff

Bumping your whole family!


213 posted on 12/07/2005 11:37:03 AM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Spiff
I have been following along with your updates. Good job!

I like this approach: When a child asks a question about religion, the teacher should say,"that is a great question-little Sally I think you should talk to your parents about it and see if you can find a good book on the topic in the library."

214 posted on 12/07/2005 11:38:40 AM PST by Diva Betsy Ross (A fun way to send care packages to troops: anysoldier.com)
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To: Spiff
Nice write up. Thanaks for keeping us informed.

You're close to the action and you seem like you have excellent judgement, so I shouldn't presume to presume, but here goes:

Reading between the lines, I get the feeling that you are being double-teamed. You may feel that people like the principal is somewhat on your side, but I suspect not. And do you think it is a coincidence that a teacher pulled your wife out of the science class? It was planned.

I know I'm cynical, but I say they are all lined up against you.

But you seem like you know what you're doing, so I suspect you'll be fine.

215 posted on 12/07/2005 11:39:58 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Spiff

This text reeks of socialism. Title? Author?


216 posted on 12/07/2005 11:46:17 AM PST by bk1000 (A clear conscience is a sure sign of a poor memory)
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To: bk1000
This text reeks of socialism. Title? Author?

Read the whole article that started this thread. It has all the info.

217 posted on 12/07/2005 11:47:11 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff

My wife and I have decided that it is most important that our children learn that it is important to respect the adults put over them, even when we disagree with the adults.

This teacher created a dillema for your son by changing the rules after the fact. I bet the teacher did not specify what was proper in the thank you note until after your son wrote what he wrote.

I think the best most respectful posistion your son should take is to withdraw his note. This path maintains respect for the teacher while allowing your son to maintain his stand.


218 posted on 12/07/2005 11:47:15 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: Raycpa

Thank you for the advice. I think that a slight rewording that instead invites the teacher back (he didn't know this was an option when he wrote the original note) to present information about the slavery, torture, and killings done in the name of Islam would be a good way too. Not only does my son get to register his protest in a more tactful way, but he gets to achieve a larger goal of helping his classmates understand the issues that have not been presented to them previously. I'm leaning in that direction, but I have to get more information from my wife first and also from my son to make sure that I fully understand the situation and his feelings about it.


219 posted on 12/07/2005 11:50:48 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
So, now I have to decide if I back the teacher up and tell my son that he should have been a little more polite. Or if I applaud his protest.

I would think that you could do both. I have said to my girls (I'm sure they would say way too often) that there are many ways to say a thing. It takes youngsters a while to learn tactfulness. His point was valid, but it could have been made differently. Based on what I have read here about the efforts that you and your wife are making to get this junk science removed from the school, it is obvious that you are both very tactful and polite while being quite firm. It takes some learning and practice to be able to do that and you are excellent role models for your son.

220 posted on 12/07/2005 11:51:25 AM PST by Bahbah (Free Scooter; Tony Schaffer for the US Senate)
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