Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism (Pope Bound for Hell).

Knoxville News-Sentinel Co. ^ | April 13, 2005 | JEANNINE F. HUNTER

[Dean Baker]

Baptist church 'fake pope' sign attracting attention, criticism By JEANNINE F. HUNTER, hunter@knews.com April 13, 2005

NEWPORT, Tenn. - Two days after being posted, a church marquee message that questions the purpose of the papacy is still attracting attention in this small community.

"What I am trying to do is to let people know there's only one way to heaven through Jesus Christ," said the Rev. Cline Franklin, pastor of Hilltop Baptist Church. "There's no need for help. God sent his son, Jesus Christ. We're all priests if we're saved. I don't need to go to anybody else to pray."

The sign's side facing Broadway, the main thoroughfare in Newport, reads, "No truth, No hope Following a hell-bound pope!" On the other side, facing the church parking lot, it reads: "False hope in a fake pope."

The message appeared days after Pope John Paul II's funeral last week.

"It is unfortunate when it comes from within the Christian church. It's really sad," said the Rev. Dan Whitman, 54, pastor of Newport's Good Shepherd Catholic parish and Holy Trinity parish in Jefferson City. "You learn how to deal with it and pray not to be that way yourself."

It does not reflect mainstream Baptist thought, said Dr. Merrill "Mel" Hawkins, associate professor of religion and director of the Center for Baptist Studies at Carson-Newman College in Jefferson City.

"When you see signs like that, they are almost like relics or artifacts of a bygone era," Hawkins said.

He spoke about animus between Protestants and Catholics persisting after the Protestant Reformation and for centuries, during which "harsh things were said, couched within misperceptions, misunderstandings."

Among the major misperceptions is that Catholics "venerate the pope on the same level as Jesus," Hawkins said, and that "the pope is connected to their salvation in place of Jesus Christ."

Catholics make up about 12 percent of the population in the South.

"Catholics are a minority faith in the South, and there's often bias toward minority religious communities because people don't understand," he said.

James Gaddis, a lay speaker who also chairs the board at First United Methodist Church, said he had not seen the sign but had heard about it.

"I understand that it's very degrading," he said. "I think it's tragic that any church group would stoop to this posture."

Following Tuesday night's council meeting, Newport Mayor Roland Dykes Jr. said he was a little saddened by the message.

"It doesn't behoove any of us to determine who is going to heaven or hell. I think the pope is a highly, highly respected person," he said.

Franklin's church is a five-year-old independent Baptist church. When asked what the message meant, he said: "What does 'pope' mean? It means father. We have a heavenly father, and the Bible says we shall call no man a father. "

He said people have been driving by or taking pictures or calling to share their views. He said the intent was not to offend Catholics and people are misunderstanding the sign.

Copyright 2005, Knoxville News-Sentinel Co.

[Binghamton_native]

Are you an ordained priest?

[rollo tomasi]

"Who is the authority in the Church? You, or the Pope speaking ex cathedra?"

It's not me or any other human. It is Christ that is the authority over His Body of believers written in the Book of Life.

The Pope is the authority of the Roman Catholic Church but I put my faith before Christ, not on an institution that has a dubious past and covers up for pedophiles and homosexual priests. And yes, there are pedophiles, homosexuals, adulterers and the like in plenty of Protestant Churches too.

[rollo tomasi]

Gal 3:28-29

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I will take God's promise over any MAN all hours of the day.

[adiaireton8]

No. :>)

-A8

[adiaireton8]

It's not me or any other human. It is Christ that is the authority over His Body of believers written in the Book of Life.

We [Christians] agree that Christ is the ultimate authority. But who is the visible (i.e. concrete, tangible) authority over the Church between the time of Christ's ascension and the time of His return? Or did Christ go to heaven and leave no one in charge?

It seems to me, from what I gather from your comments, that you think Christ left no one in charge, like sheep without a shepherd.

The sinners in the Church are indeed a shame to the Church. We are called to be a holy body, "unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam". So, whenever leaders in the Church fail to live holy lives, it tarnishes the bride of Christ who is to be spotless. But, if you studied the Donatist heresy, or if you have read about Eli in the Old Testament, or Christ's comment (in the New Testament) about the Pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses, then you will understand that the authority in the Church does not de jure lose its authority on account of its sinfulness. Neither the efficacy of the sacraments administered by such individuals, nor their ordination itself, is revoked by their sins per se. For, the "gifts and calling are irrevocable", as the Scripture teaches. We pray for the purification of Christ's Church, and for her holiness, and for her leaders. And we work to purify ourselves, and our families. But we do not reject the Church, or reject her rightful authorities, on account of their failings, because she remains the Church, and her leaders retain their appointed authority, in spite of their failings.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

I will take God's promise over any MAN all hours of the day.

What must one's relation be to Christ's Church, in order to be "in Christ Jesus" or to "be Christ's", in order to receive "God's promise"? See my earlier post #1326.

-A8

[HiTech RedNeck]

You are assuming that the Bible is an exhaustive source of theological truth.

Not exhaustive -- sufficient.

[adiaireton8]

Not exhaustive -- sufficient.

Sufficient for what? Attaining all theological truth? If so, then that's no different from "exhaustive". If, on the other hand, it is not sufficient for attaining all theological truth, then not finding X in the Bible is no proof or demonstration that X is not true.

-A8

[HiTech RedNeck]

When Ananias tells Saul to "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins", this makes no sense to you, and so you turn it into a metaphor, since the notion of God working through matter is so repulsive to you.

Isn't this just another one of your "argumentum ad"'s? Whatever an "ad-it-must-be-repulsive-to-you-ism" happens to be called in Latin.

There's a baptism into the H.S. which occurs upon believing that would apply perfectly well here. There are more references in the bible supporting a symbolic water baptism than there are that would question such a view.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Sufficient for salvation. All evangelicals believe that God will reveal other truths to them -- in Glory, not through an emperors' church.

[Elsie]

<>First, you don't have the authority to determine the meaning of Scripture.

Sorry, but I take THIS '"authority's" word, instead of you.

---

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:12-14
12. Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace.
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[Elsie]

Can you READ??

I interpreteted NOTHING!

I just emphasised WORDS that some evidently seem to IGNORE.

[Elsie]

You will of course note I said "Divine sign" indicating that I was looking for some indicator, or gesture of divine origin, that would demonstrat that Elsie had a special charisma to infallibly teach from scripture.

 

While we P-folks  are 'looking for some indicator, or gesture of divine origin, that would demonstrat that the RCC had a special charisma to infallibly teach from an interpretation of scripture.

 

 

Taking a verse or two [out of context] and building upon it is what Satan did.  I posted entire chunks of verses, pointing out what is LEFT OUT of  'our Holy Father's doctrine.

 

 

[Elsie]

Far from it.

You've got the same doctrine!

#1338

[Elsie]

NIV Matthew 5:22
   But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. 

 

NIV Matthew 5:29
   If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

 

NIV Matthew 5:30
   And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

NIV Matthew 10:28
   Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

NIV Matthew 18:9
   And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

NIV Matthew 23:15
   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

 

NIV Matthew 23:33
   "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

 

NIV Mark 9:43
   If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

 

NIV Mark 9:45
   And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

 

NIV Mark 9:47-48
 47.  And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
 48.  where "`their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

 

NIV Luke 12:5
   But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

 

NIV Luke 16:23
   In hell,  where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

 

NIV James 3:6
   The tongue also is a fire , a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire , and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

NIV 2 Peter 2:4-9
 4.  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,  putting them into gloomy dungeons  to be held for judgment;
 5.  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
 6.  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 7.  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
 8.  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
 9.  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

 

NIV Hebrews 10:26-27
 26.  If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
 27.  but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

NIV 2 Peter 3:7
   By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire , being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

NIV 2 Peter 3:10
   But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire , and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

 

NIV 2 Peter 3:11-13
11.  Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
 12.  as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire , and the elements will melt in the heat.
 13.  But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

 

NIV Jude 1:7
   In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire .

 

NIV Jude 1:22-23
 22.  Be merciful to those who doubt;
 23.  snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

 

NIV Revelation 20:14-15
 14.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire . The lake of fire is the second death.
15.  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire .

---

It does.........

[servantboy777]

It's really sad that there are people who mislead others with trash talk such as this sign. I must admit however, my wife went to the Catholic website and the Catholic doctrine apparently feels if your not part of the Catholic church, your in danger of perishing. Again, I think it's sad that this kind of smack is on both sides.

Heck, even within the various denominations there are huge divisions in theology, ie: Liberal vs conservative. This might be slightly different, however making a blanket statement about the Pope is NOT Christian like, sounds more like judgment.

Pray, Love God, Keep his commandments to the best of your ability and the rest God will take care of. No one is perfect, we are (ALL) sinners! Even the most dedicated of persons on earth are sinners.

So, my point. The persons talking the smack are bordering on hypocrisy while throwing the stone and at the end of the day when things get quiet, your allowed to focus on your own thought, word and deeds----did ya sin? Do ya need to ask for forgiveness? Chances are, you did and do.

[AD from SpringBay]

Nice labeling and thanks for focusing on only one point I made. You didn't defend the catechism's claim that I thought we were discussing. Anyway, thanks for bringing up all the baptisms. You'll note everyone who is baptised in the Bible first believed. I wonder why that is? Could it be that belief is supposed to come before baptism?

I mentioned the thief on the cross as a final example as to why you don't need to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be in heaven. This contradicts the particular catechism I thought we were discussing. I guess you don't address that because you don't know what to do with it.

Let's see if I can figure out what to do with all your wonderful examples. I Peter 3:21 (am guessing this is what you are referring to) - after Peter writes, "...baptism does also now save us..." he then explains that it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So here I think the good conscience and the resurrection of Christ come first.

Then in Acts 2:38 - Peter does tell them to be baptised. But he first tells them to repent. I'm thinking the repentances comes first.

In Acts 9:18, when Paul was baptised, this happens after He met Christ, received the Holy Spirit, and had the scales fall from his eyes. Once again, some powerful events of faith and belief happen before baptism.

I couldn't find the John quote. My apologies. Since I can't find it, I'll concur - I don't know what to do with it.

In John 3:3, what I think is your best example - Jesus does indeed tell Nicodemus that unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot see the Kingdom of God. After some elaboration on the part of Jesus, Nicodemus reveals himself to not quite understand (like myself at times). So Jesus continues to elaborate. If you read all the way down to John 3:15 you hear the Savior say - that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. So at the very least, baptism must have a strong element of belief in the Savior.

The turning of the unleavened bread into the literal Body of Christ - I'm wondering, how can you tell when Jesus is using literal vs. figurative language? For example, are there real keys that Jesus gave to Peter or are those figurative? And since we're chasing rabbits can you show me where Christ gives the ability to understand scripture to only the apostles?

Mark 16:16 - Mark does put belief first, and adds it again at the end of that verse...he that believes not shall be damned. There's that belief element again. What will you do with this?

We were all baptized into one body - that would be the body of Christ? Did I get that one right? Or are you thinking here it's talking about the Catholic church?

Just to clarify a few other things and take some of your words out of my mouth - baptism is definitely not worthless. I highly recommend it to all the believers out there. The resurrection of Jesus saves us, and that was a very real event. You use the label Gnostic rather loosely since the original Gnostics believed that Jesus was somehow less than human and more spiritual than fleshly. You might want to brush up on your church history. We do need a church. We do need to do what Jesus taught (though I don't recall Him using any sacraments). And the passages you cited do make sense to me.

By grace are we saved through faith. Do you know what to do with that? Does the thief on the cross make any sense to you? He is just one more example of faith before baptism, but he is definitely not my entire theology.

[adiaireton8]

You don't understand the nature of the incarnation, and thus you don't understand the nature of the sacraments. Tell me, were circumcised babies who died as infants during Old Testament times saved or unsaved?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Sufficient for salvation.

The sufficiency of Scripture for salvation is fully compatible with Mary being sinless, which was the original point in question.

-A8

[jwh_Denver]

You answer my posts that I posted Scripture to refute your belief that Christ left a visible Church and also the belief that he left one church to to teach the people the truth and I'll answer your question. I am not playing this game of being led around with you never answering my posts.