Nice labeling and thanks for focusing on only one point I made. You didn't defend the catechism's claim that I thought we were discussing. Anyway, thanks for bringing up all the baptisms. You'll note everyone who is baptised in the Bible first believed. I wonder why that is? Could it be that belief is supposed to come before baptism?
I mentioned the thief on the cross as a final example as to why you don't need to belong to the Catholic Church in order to be in heaven. This contradicts the particular catechism I thought we were discussing. I guess you don't address that because you don't know what to do with it.
Let's see if I can figure out what to do with all your wonderful examples. I Peter 3:21 (am guessing this is what you are referring to) - after Peter writes, "...baptism does also now save us..." he then explains that it is the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So here I think the good conscience and the resurrection of Christ come first.
Then in Acts 2:38 - Peter does tell them to be baptised. But he first tells them to repent. I'm thinking the repentances comes first.
In Acts 9:18, when Paul was baptised, this happens after He met Christ, received the Holy Spirit, and had the scales fall from his eyes. Once again, some powerful events of faith and belief happen before baptism.
I couldn't find the John quote. My apologies. Since I can't find it, I'll concur - I don't know what to do with it.
In John 3:3, what I think is your best example - Jesus does indeed tell Nicodemus that unless a man is born of water and the spirit he cannot see the Kingdom of God. After some elaboration on the part of Jesus, Nicodemus reveals himself to not quite understand (like myself at times). So Jesus continues to elaborate. If you read all the way down to John 3:15 you hear the Savior say - that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. So at the very least, baptism must have a strong element of belief in the Savior.
The turning of the unleavened bread into the literal Body of Christ - I'm wondering, how can you tell when Jesus is using literal vs. figurative language? For example, are there real keys that Jesus gave to Peter or are those figurative? And since we're chasing rabbits can you show me where Christ gives the ability to understand scripture to only the apostles?
Mark 16:16 - Mark does put belief first, and adds it again at the end of that verse...he that believes not shall be damned. There's that belief element again. What will you do with this?
We were all baptized into one body - that would be the body of Christ? Did I get that one right? Or are you thinking here it's talking about the Catholic church?
Just to clarify a few other things and take some of your words out of my mouth - baptism is definitely not worthless. I highly recommend it to all the believers out there. The resurrection of Jesus saves us, and that was a very real event. You use the label Gnostic rather loosely since the original Gnostics believed that Jesus was somehow less than human and more spiritual than fleshly. You might want to brush up on your church history. We do need a church. We do need to do what Jesus taught (though I don't recall Him using any sacraments). And the passages you cited do make sense to me.
By grace are we saved through faith. Do you know what to do with that? Does the thief on the cross make any sense to you? He is just one more example of faith before baptism, but he is definitely not my entire theology.
AD from SpringBay, Catholics have always believed that we are saved by faith, but not by faith alone. I take it you will agree that babies do not have faith. And presumably you know that babies have original sin from Adam, as Rom 5 teaches. (The denial of original sin is one of the errors of the Pelagian heresy). So, it follows that babies cannot be saved by faith alone. Nor can people (of any age) who are neurologically incapable of understanding the Gospel. But these can be saved through baptism, even though they don't understand or believe.
The sacraments are means of grace. Through baptism, our sins are washed away, and we are buried with Christ, and joined to His body, the Church. See post #1298 for verses supporting these claims. The early Church Fathers agreed that baptism should not be witheld from babies. That shows that they did not view baptism as merely symbolic (in the Gnostic way of viewing the sacraments, but rather as efficacious. (Even Anglicans, and Lutherans and Presbyterians agree with Catholics on this point.)
Regarding the thief on the cross and the necessity of baptism, James Akin has a helpful discussion here .
baptism is definitely not worthless.
Well, at least it is not worthless. (/sarcasm)
I highly recommend it to all the believers out there.
Why? It is just a symbol, right?
The resurrection of Jesus saves us,
If the resurrection of Jesus saves us, then do you believe everyone is saved (i.e. are you a universalist)?
You use the label Gnostic rather loosely since the original Gnostics believed that Jesus was somehow less than human and more spiritual than fleshly. You might want to brush up on your church history.
One does not need to believe every single thing the early Gnostics believed to be a Gnostic. Once you start comparing Gnosticism with historic Christianity, you will see how Gnostic you are. As Newman says, "to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant". This is in large part because one discovers the difference between Gnosticism and Christianity.
We do need a church.
Which one? Or, will anything which calls itself a "church" do?
We do need to do what Jesus taught (though I don't recall Him using any sacraments).
You don't recall the institution of the eucharist, on the night in which he was betrayed, where He said "Take, and eat. This is my body"? You don't recall Him commissioning the disciplines to baptize all nations?
-A8