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To: rollo tomasi
It's not me or any other human. It is Christ that is the authority over His Body of believers written in the Book of Life.

We [Christians] agree that Christ is the ultimate authority. But who is the visible (i.e. concrete, tangible) authority over the Church between the time of Christ's ascension and the time of His return? Or did Christ go to heaven and leave no one in charge?

It seems to me, from what I gather from your comments, that you think Christ left no one in charge, like sheep without a shepherd.

The sinners in the Church are indeed a shame to the Church. We are called to be a holy body, "unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam". So, whenever leaders in the Church fail to live holy lives, it tarnishes the bride of Christ who is to be spotless. But, if you studied the Donatist heresy, or if you have read about Eli in the Old Testament, or Christ's comment (in the New Testament) about the Pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses, then you will understand that the authority in the Church does not de jure lose its authority on account of its sinfulness. Neither the efficacy of the sacraments administered by such individuals, nor their ordination itself, is revoked by their sins per se. For, the "gifts and calling are irrevocable", as the Scripture teaches. We pray for the purification of Christ's Church, and for her holiness, and for her leaders. And we work to purify ourselves, and our families. But we do not reject the Church, or reject her rightful authorities, on account of their failings, because she remains the Church, and her leaders retain their appointed authority, in spite of their failings.

-A8

1,365 posted on 04/23/2005 10:51:14 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
No, I believe there are elders, priest, pastors, bishops, Popes, early Church Fathers etc... who lead, teach, and set good examples but I differ on the Pope just being the only exclusive one. Even Peter and Paul had their differences (On matters of traditions) and that should speak volumes.

I don't believe in tyranny of man made governments and I do not believe in tyranny of an earthly Church. Suppose a demon became a head of this one earthly Church system. Man is weak and often lust for power, that is why I only look to Christ as a means for my salvation not a fallible human sitting on a earthly throne.

As far as accepting which ones:

"Therefore by their fruits shall you know them. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 4:1

'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God'

Note I am not stating that all the Popes, preachers etc are false teachers. However I do believe in questioning, not blindly following certain doctrines. Divinity of Christ, death for salvation and Resurrection, possessing the incorruptible seed and of the word of God is what we test for.

Peace in Christ to you.
1,392 posted on 04/24/2005 11:42:27 AM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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