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To: adiaireton8
No, I believe there are elders, priest, pastors, bishops, Popes, early Church Fathers etc... who lead, teach, and set good examples but I differ on the Pope just being the only exclusive one. Even Peter and Paul had their differences (On matters of traditions) and that should speak volumes.

I don't believe in tyranny of man made governments and I do not believe in tyranny of an earthly Church. Suppose a demon became a head of this one earthly Church system. Man is weak and often lust for power, that is why I only look to Christ as a means for my salvation not a fallible human sitting on a earthly throne.

As far as accepting which ones:

"Therefore by their fruits shall you know them. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 4:1

'Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God'

Note I am not stating that all the Popes, preachers etc are false teachers. However I do believe in questioning, not blindly following certain doctrines. Divinity of Christ, death for salvation and Resurrection, possessing the incorruptible seed and of the word of God is what we test for.

Peace in Christ to you.
1,392 posted on 04/24/2005 11:42:27 AM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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To: rollo tomasi
No, I believe there are elders, priest, pastors, bishops, Popes, early Church Fathers etc... who lead, teach, and set good examples but I differ on the Pope just being the only exclusive one.

The only exclusive one??? You don't think there should be just one Pope at a time? You think there should be more than one Pope at at time???

Even Peter and Paul had their differences (On matters of traditions) and that should speak volumes.

The Church has always recognized the fallibility of its leaders, including Peter himself, who denied Christ three times. Peter's denying Christ three times did not result in Christ removing the keys from Peter and giving them to someone else.

I don't believe in tyranny of man made governments

Neither does the Catholic Church.

and I do not believe in tyranny of an earthly Church

And neither does any Catholic. How about trying not to attack a straw man, ok?

Suppose a demon became a head of this one earthly Church system.

That is impossible. Not only must the Pope be a human being, but, Christ has promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. And if Satan took over the Church, that would definitely imply that Christ's promise had been broken.

Man is weak and often lust for power,

Every Catholic agrees. How about focusing on something other than a straw man?

that is why I only look to Christ as a means for my salvation not a fallible human sitting on a earthly throne.

Christ did not say that possession of the keys by Peter depended upon Peter being perfect or infallible. You have to deal with the keys. You seem to think that failings on Peter's part give you a free pass to reject Christ's appointed authority. Such a doctrine is not in the Bible. Rather, we see that Eli retained his authority, in spite of his sinfulness. The Pharisees retained their authority (sitting in the seat of Moses, as Christ says) in spite of their hypocrisy. Caiphas retained his authority, in spite of his rebellion against Christ. Peter retained his authority, in spite of denying Jesus three times, and in spite of his hypocrisy in Antioch (Gal 2:11ff).

How did you learn what to test for except through the Church? Even the Scriptures come to you through the Church. You want to use the authority of the teaching of the Church to judge the Church. But the Church is a greater authority than the teaching of the Church. The teaching of the Church would have no authority without the authority of the Church. The teaching of the Church derives its authority from the Church. Hence, the teaching of the Church does not have greater authority than the Church. Therefore, you cannot make the teaching of the Church greater in authority than the authority of the Church, which is exactly what you are doing when you say:

Note I am not stating that all the Popes, preachers etc are false teachers. However I do believe in questioning, not blindly following certain doctrines. Divinity of Christ, death for salvation and Resurrection, possessing the incorruptible seed and of the word of God is what we test for.

Of course we should test for these things. But always under the authority of the Church, from whom and through whom we have received the Scriptures and the teaching regarding what to test for.

-A8

1,396 posted on 04/24/2005 3:08:58 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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