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On Israel's Law of Return: Are Jews Primarily a Religion Or a Race?
January 19, 2005 | ComtedeMaistre

Posted on 01/19/2005 6:18:17 AM PST by ComtedeMaistre

I met an old friend at a high school reunion, and he informed me of plans he has to make an aliyah (immigrate) to Israel. What is interesting about the individual, is that he is a self-proclaimed deist, but one who was raised in a Jewish household (both parents Jewish), which makes him eligible to immigrate under Israel's law of return.

From him, I came to learn that anyone with a Jewish parent is eligible to immigrate to Israel. However, a gentile who converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism, is not eligible under Israel's law of return.

What this means, is that an anti-zionist atheist like Noam Chomsky is free to immigrate to Israel, because of his ancestral lineage, while a gentile convert to Judaism is not (unless he undergoes an Orthodox conversion).

I would like some expert on the issue to explain to what extent Judaism is a religion, and to what extent Jewish identity is inherited (i.e. ethnic) According to Israel's law of return, more weight is given to ethnic Jewish identity than to actual religious beliefs.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Israel; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: israel; judaism; lawofreturn; zionism
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To: cleo1939

I'm not sure why you are concerned about putting people into your categories. Your system may make sense to you, but it is irrelevant to observant Jews.

Jews -- at least religious ones -- don't believe that there is anything to your concept of the "ethnic Jew". That concept, which is the basis for Israel's Law of Return, exists only because non-Jews (Hitler) imposed it. (The turn-of-the-century mayor of Vienna, Karl Lueger, was famous for imposing anti-Jewish laws but associating with people who, under his rules, were "Jews." He famously retorted, "I'll decide who is a Jew.")

To religious Jews, a Jew is someone who's mother was Jewish (according to Jewish law) or who converts to Judaism (according to Jewish law).

Religious Jews would not feel a strong ethnic affinity to someone who's father was Jewish but who's mother was not Jewish (unless that person converted to Judaism).


41 posted on 01/19/2005 9:39:01 AM PST by Piranha
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To: Ready4Freddy

Funny in a weird sort of way, Most forget Sammy only had one eye.


42 posted on 01/19/2005 9:49:13 AM PST by sgtbono2002
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To: SJackson
It's my understanding that if you state thay you're a now a Christian, you likely wouldn't be admitted.

I've never been Jewish, which is why I think it's wild that I could make aliyah. And even though no one after my grandmother (to my knowledge) was Jewish in my family, I always felt a kinship with Israel and all Jewish people. So when I found out in my twenties that my grandmother had been Jewish, it explained a lot for me. Guess there was some latent spiritual/physical connection of some sort. :)

43 posted on 01/19/2005 9:54:30 AM PST by agrace ("...now the Big Jihad is begun." - newly elected PA president Abu Mazen to cheering crowds, 1/10)
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To: ComtedeMaistre

Besides Reform, Conservative and Orthodox there is mainstream Judaism, which represents the majority of Israelis. Reform and Conservative are not recognized because they are to Judaism is what scientology to Christianity. Those who convert to Judaism theough a regular mainstream sinagogue are recognized by the Israeli state. Although it is hard to convert since Judaism discourages conversion. And trying to figure out if Jews are a religion or an ethnical group is an excercise in futility. Let us all get a life instead.


44 posted on 01/19/2005 10:22:30 AM PST by Mi-kha-el ((There is no Pravda in Izvestiya and no Izvestiya in Pravda.))
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To: agrace

if your maternal grandmother was jewish , than so are you.


45 posted on 01/19/2005 10:29:12 AM PST by avitot
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To: richardtavor
This may seem shocking to some , but skin color is not a determinate of race. There are extremely dark Indians that are white. there are some anthropologists that place Ethiopians and other dark nilotic people into the Hamitic branch of the Caucasoid race.
Ethiopian Jews are dark skinned but do not have negroid features- in fact they look like dark Yemenis.
Dark skinned Jews that are truly Negroid are 100% Jewish if they are halachicly Jewish.
Remember ,while most Arabs are dark, David hamelech was a gingy(Redhead) with blue eyes and my sephardic ladino speaking aunt was green eyed. Even at mt. sinai our nation was not entirely ethnically pure as we took in the erev rav
46 posted on 01/19/2005 10:44:28 AM PST by avitot
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To: cleo1939

My problem was for years that a Jew was of a religion. However
somewhere back there in my head I also knew that it was also
ethnic.




There is no ethnic Jew. The term is probably used by a person born or raised of Jews who is eschewing any religious feeling while at the same time unwilling to swear off all traces of heritage, ie a "fallen" Jew.

Being an "ethnic" Jew is the same as saying you are from California and like the beach. It is a willing embrace of some aspect of Jewish culture. But which culture? Since Jews come from all over the world the cultures vary as well though there are universals.


47 posted on 01/19/2005 10:44:37 AM PST by dervish (Europe can go to Islam)
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To: Piranha
your not incorrect in saying am can mean people in the generic sense, but in a language of limited words they often have more than one definition.
Dvarim:
Shoftim 20 ,17 the seven nations ;hittites,amorites,canaanites etc are referred to as haamim.(plural for the nations). sometimes goy is the term used for nations.
48 posted on 01/19/2005 11:07:02 AM PST by avitot
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To: ComtedeMaistre
Judaism is BOTH a religion and a nationality. It is not a race. Law of Return is through parentage. My grandfather's documents both under the Austro-Hungarian empire and the then new state of Czechoslovakia listed his nationality as "Jewish". This was NOT anti-Semitism, just a statement of fact.

Since the creation of the State of Israel Jewish nationality has been obscured by Israeli nationality. The Law of Return simply makes it clear than anyone of Jewish nationality is also entitled to Israeli nationality. It does not matter whether one is haredi (black hat, ulta-orthodox), dati leumi (modern orthodox), or chiloni (secular). (FWIW: other groups such as masortim (conservative Jews) are not recognized by the State of Israel and are considered chilonim.)

Considering that the most pro-Israel folks in America are in America's Bible Belt,

Pro-Israel by American Christian standards, yes. Many of the view expressed by American Christian conservatives are the views of the far right ultra-nationalists in Israel. I think such views support policies that do Israel far more harm than good. That is from my Israeli, masorti Jewish, center-right (Likud supporter) perspective.

The Christian right opposes the giving away of even an inch of territory in the peace process.

Precisely my point. That is the road to national suicide and perpetual war. We would have an Arab majority within our borders in no time. We would hold Arab population centers with no hope of ever being free of conflict. What a disaster that would be.

allowing some of those folks to settle in Israel would actually strengthen the state of Israel.

Thankfully we do NOT allow that. We want our children to grow up Jewish not Christian. So long as the evangelical Christianity feels the necessity to prostletyze to Jews they will never be welcomed here except as visitors.

49 posted on 01/19/2005 11:17:15 AM PST by anotherview (Part of the Palestinians' "Zionist enemy" and proud of it.)
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To: anotherview

very well put . also jews from the former soviet union have on their identity card jewish as their nationality. it was only with the onset of reform judaism that people tried to separate nationhood from the jewish religion so as to become germans of the mosaic persuasion.


50 posted on 01/19/2005 11:39:13 AM PST by avitot
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To: anotherview

“That is the road to national suicide and perpetual war. We would have an Arab majority within our borders in no time. We would hold Arab population centers with no hope of ever being free of conflict. What a disaster that would be.”




Recent studies show that the Arab demographic bomb may just be a tidy little piece of Palestinian propaganda which has had a huge impact on Israeli policy.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1320695/posts


51 posted on 01/19/2005 12:17:04 PM PST by dervish (Europe can go to Islam)
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To: dervish

I don't agree. I think it is, at best, a wildcard.

Even if there is no demographic timebomb it is foolish to try and control large hostile Arab population centers. Doing so is costing us far too many good Israeli lives in pointless conflict. I say pointless because holding places like Gaza with no role in Jewish history, no religious significance, and only a tiny Jewish population vis a vis a huge Arab population, does not serve our security needs or enhance Israel's ability to defend itself IMHO.


52 posted on 01/19/2005 12:21:30 PM PST by anotherview (Part of the Palestinians' "Zionist enemy" and proud of it.)
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To: anotherview

You identify yourself as a "Likud supporter" in supporting return of Gaza. Plenty of Likud oppose returning Gaza including Netanyahu.

The "pointless conflict" comment presupposes that returning Gaza or anything else will stop the conflict. That decision is not in the hands of Israelis nor am I so naive that I believe the Palestinians will be satisfied with any form of two state solution including return up to 1967 borders.

It is just a form of appeasement perceived by Arabs as weakness.

In my view rather than needing protection which many Left leaning Israelis oppose, the Israelis who live in Gaza and the West Bank are a first line of defense. Even if one removes religious reasons from the equation, for strategic reasons they are crucial.


53 posted on 01/19/2005 1:01:18 PM PST by dervish (Europe can go to Islam)
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To: dervish
You identify yourself as a "Likud supporter" in supporting return of Gaza. Plenty of Likud oppose returning Gaza including Netanyahu.

Funny, Finance Minister Netanyahu has voted in favor of the Prime Minister's disengagement plan every time it has come to a vote. That's not terribly strong opposition, is it?

The "pointless conflict" comment presupposes that returning Gaza or anything else will stop the conflict.

It will not. It will, however, save many Jewish lives by making attacks like the one we saw in Gush Katif yesterday impossible. Only one attack by Palestinians who infiltrated Israel proper from Gaza has succeeded: the Ashdod port bombing. The fence and the IDF along it can block 99%+ of Palestinian attempts at mass murder inside Israel.

That decision is not in the hands of Israelis

I disagree. We can make it nearly impossible for the Palestinians to inflict significant harm on us if we control their borders and fence them in.

It is just a form of appeasement

I disagree. It is withdrawal, but to a defensible line. The settlements in Gaza are not defensible.

Even if one removes religious reasons from the equation

Irrelevant. There are NO religious reasons for staying in Gaza.

for strategic reasons they are crucial.

I think quite the contrary. It is precisely for strategic reasons that they must go.

54 posted on 01/19/2005 1:17:58 PM PST by anotherview (Part of the Palestinians' "Zionist enemy" and proud of it.)
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To: Alouette
Halachah (Jewish law) defines a Jew as one whose mother is Jewish, or who has converted according to religious law.

A Jewish boy comes home from school and tells his mother he's been given a part in the school play.
"Wonderful. What part is it?"
The boy says, "I play the part of the Jewish husband."
The mother scowls and says, "Go back and tell the teacher you want a speaking part."
< / rimshot >

55 posted on 01/19/2005 1:45:48 PM PST by paleocon patriarch ("Never attribute to a conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence.")
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To: ComtedeMaistre
And why should they, it is nobody's right, not even the Jews, to give the land to anyone only God has the Sovereign power to change His laws and that ain't gonna happen.

Does anyone remember the funny but very prophetic song from many years back(circa 1950s)which jokingly said, "It's in the Book", oh yes, it's in the Book alright.

If any want to know what Book, forget it, the answer would only confound the more those who asked the question!

56 posted on 01/19/2005 1:49:26 PM PST by VOYAGER
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To: Piranha
It's funny, ya' know?

As a non-Jew I attended a Conservative synagogue for awhile. There were two rabbis, the older of which always wanted to consider me in a minyan while the younger one always balked.

It was frequently awkward as the shul always struggled for a Saturday minyan.

As I said, I attended for awhile....

57 posted on 01/19/2005 9:04:11 PM PST by onedoug
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To: paleocon patriarch

Very funny.


58 posted on 01/19/2005 9:08:10 PM PST by Red Sea Swimmer (Tisha5765Bav)
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To: hlmencken3
It seems to matter quite a bit for people wishing to immigrate to Israel.

What I cannot understand is: who cares? Why do people want to know? Of what relevance is this issue to being Jewish?

59 posted on 01/19/2005 9:08:23 PM PST by Ready4Freddy (Veni Vidi Velcro)
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To: agrace
The Beth Din, Jewish Legal Court, requires original copies of Birth Certificates of relatives of those people who are interested in making aliyah or confirming their Jewishness. The orthodox Rabbinate are very strict in certain matters. An Australian Jewish girl I know who is marrying an Israeli had to present two male witnesses to the Beth Din who had to testify that she had not been married. (Because he is a Kohanim he cannot marry a divorced woman according to halakha.) One of the Beth Din members remarked that it was unfortunate that the two male witnesses brought before the court were not Jewish.

Halakhic interpretation is a very interesting field. Messianic jurisprudence will eventually reign throughout the world.
60 posted on 01/19/2005 9:17:20 PM PST by Red Sea Swimmer (Tisha5765Bav)
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