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On Israel's Law of Return: Are Jews Primarily a Religion Or a Race?
January 19, 2005 | ComtedeMaistre

Posted on 01/19/2005 6:18:17 AM PST by ComtedeMaistre

I met an old friend at a high school reunion, and he informed me of plans he has to make an aliyah (immigrate) to Israel. What is interesting about the individual, is that he is a self-proclaimed deist, but one who was raised in a Jewish household (both parents Jewish), which makes him eligible to immigrate under Israel's law of return.

From him, I came to learn that anyone with a Jewish parent is eligible to immigrate to Israel. However, a gentile who converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism, is not eligible under Israel's law of return.

What this means, is that an anti-zionist atheist like Noam Chomsky is free to immigrate to Israel, because of his ancestral lineage, while a gentile convert to Judaism is not (unless he undergoes an Orthodox conversion).

I would like some expert on the issue to explain to what extent Judaism is a religion, and to what extent Jewish identity is inherited (i.e. ethnic) According to Israel's law of return, more weight is given to ethnic Jewish identity than to actual religious beliefs.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; Israel; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: israel; judaism; lawofreturn; zionism
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To: ComtedeMaistre

If there can be atheistic Jews, a race. If not, a religion.


21 posted on 01/19/2005 7:14:47 AM PST by BikerNYC
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To: SJackson

Yeah, it's pretty wild that even though I'm a Christian, I can make aliyah because my grandmother was Jewish.

Which leads to another question - my husband can make aliyah through my grandmother also, but my kids (who are quite young yet) seemingly cannot? Unless, I assume, I convert to Judaism?

Oh and yet another one - what kind of proof does Israel require of children and grandchildren? How would Israeli authorities determine, and how would one indicate, that a grandparent was Jewish? I imagine that you can't just fly over and say "hey, I claim eligibility" with nothing to back it up.


22 posted on 01/19/2005 7:19:30 AM PST by agrace ("...now the Big Jihad is begun." - newly elected PA president Abu Mazen to cheering crowds, 1/10)
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To: eclectic

Great Answer, eclectic. It also is not necessarily a religion, but a birthright and a way of life. Most people don't realize that all of the 633 laws that G-d gave the Jews are to enhance their daily lives in obedience to G-d--e.g. that if they adhere to the laws they will live long and have happiness in the covering of Ha Shem. As far as race, I contribute most to help Aliya for the Ethopian Jews. It is truly a blessing to see the happiness and appreciation that they have when they come to Israel.


23 posted on 01/19/2005 7:20:42 AM PST by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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To: Piranha

I have friends that are converts that made Aliya. They were given exactly the same benefits and rights as born Jews. The Israeli Government paid their way to come to Israel, paid to ship their furniture, and set them up in housing. There was no difference given to them. And by the way, they were never asked if they believed in Jesus!


24 posted on 01/19/2005 7:24:47 AM PST by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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To: agrace

I'm not sure what would be required as proof. It's my understanding that if you state thay you're a now a Christian, you likely wouldn't be admitted. Obviously you could lie, which could get you deported later. If you were admitted, I believe your minor children would be as well.


25 posted on 01/19/2005 7:26:53 AM PST by SJackson ( Bush is as free as a bird, He is only accountable to history and God, Ra'anan Gissin)
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To: ComtedeMaistre
I have often wondered about this too, and not because of the right of return. I have met people who were very non-observant Jews, basically with little or no involvement in religious activities but they came from a Jewish family and so they are Jews. Also I have met converts who enthusiastically studied Judaism and yet because no one in their ancestry was Jewish, some people think they are 'those who say they are Jews but are not'.

The same confusion is often applied to Islam. I have no racism against anyone of any color or ancestry, but I do have a problem with radical Islam. Yet whenever I say anything bad about the religion Islam, people on the left say I am a racist and a bigot. It's not a race, it's a religion. There is a difference.

26 posted on 01/19/2005 7:33:05 AM PST by Sender (Team Infidel USA)
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To: cleo1939

This is an old question with me. I believe that you have on
one hand the ethnic Jew and on the other religious Jew which
in most cases are combined.
Cleo, there is no distinction. there is no such thing as a half Jew, an ethnic Jew, or whatever. Either you are Jewish, or you are not. The distinction between converts and born Jews at that at the Holy Temple, the converts could not go into the inner court. They were not chosen by G-d, but they were precious to G-d. Many Jews are atheists, but they are still Jews. I guarantee that whether they were atheists or not, they were still slaughtered in the Holocaust because of their birthright.


27 posted on 01/19/2005 7:33:22 AM PST by richardtavor (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem in the name of the G-d of Jacob)
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To: Piranha
The law of return, I believe, was set up to mirror Hitler's Jewish laws.

Putting Hitler ahead of Moses--very bad idea.

28 posted on 01/19/2005 7:35:58 AM PST by Alouette (Learned Mother of Zion)
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To: ComtedeMaistre

I am not a rabbi nor am I an expert.But as an Orthodox Jew, a few observations.

Israel was created after the Holocaust to be a Jewish homeland, a country where all Jews can reside, presumably safely and without persecution. But essentially, Israel's founders , although Jewish, were not Orthodox and Torah observant. This has caused a division within Israel between the Orthodox and the Secular inhabitants. Judaism as such is a religion, but it is much more than that. This cuts to the heart of the differences betweeen the Orthodox and the Secular factions. The secular consider Judaism as a religion, the Orthodox as a 24/7 way of life, governing just about everything we do.

It also at least partially explains the increasingly close affiliation between the Orthodox Jews and religious Christians: we both recognize that with everything we do it is with the A-Mighty deep within our consciousness. On the other hand, the more secular adherents seemingly limit their observance to a time and situation of their choosing.

Turning to modern-day politics, the "Palestinian" issue is basically a canard to make the Jewish population of Israel a minority, and thereby no longer render Israel as a Jewish state. The Orthodox, who recognize the intrinsic holiness of the Land of Israel, are generally much more reluctant to part with any land for "peace", while the more secular faction is less concerned with Israel's holiness. But we are all Jews, and we see it as our duty to try to educate those less committed to the truer meaning behind Judaism and the Land of Israel.


29 posted on 01/19/2005 7:38:17 AM PST by Zivasmate (" A wise man's heart inclines him to his right, but a fool's heart to his left." - Ecclesiastes 10)
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To: ComtedeMaistre

Both


30 posted on 01/19/2005 7:40:13 AM PST by ChadGore (VISUALIZE 60,608,582 Bush fans.)
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To: ComtedeMaistre
Judaism is not a race the way Russian's are not a race or french are not a race . there are 3 basic races Caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid, although some add the Australian aborigines as a separate race.
Judaism is both a religion and a nation. Until the onset of universal,transnational religions-buddism , Christianity, and Islam, national religions were the norm.Britons and other Celts were druids, English worshiped Wodin, Romans had their Jupitor et al, Greeks their Zeus, Egyptians their Osiris et al, Persians had their Zoroastrianism. However the Jewish nation did not give up their national religion in favor of a new faith. Other nationalities such as Indians kept their native Hinduism and Japanese their native Shinto( they did incorporate some Buddhist teachings).
Furhtermore, the bible refers to the Jewish people as "Am Yisroel"- the nation of Israel not as a trans national group of religious adherents. Like any nation we have a history of sovereignty and kings (if we're just a transnational religious group who was David the king of ? the french? the Iroquois? Our nationality is one of the worlds oldest. Even in the New Testament the epitaph the Roman soldiers placed on Jesus was "king of the Jews " not Pontifex Maximus of the Mosaic code!
31 posted on 01/19/2005 7:52:25 AM PST by avitot
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To: ChadGore

Think of the Jews as a Tribe; a distinct People. Not a Race, and not just a religion, but something more.


32 posted on 01/19/2005 7:52:26 AM PST by captain_dave
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To: avitot
"Am Yisroel"- the nation of Israel

Commonly translated as the "people" of Israel, not the "nation" of Israel.

The Jews are a people. They are not a closed system but have rigorous entrance requirements.

33 posted on 01/19/2005 8:13:32 AM PST by Piranha
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To: Piranha

am (ayin mem) is translated as either nation or generic people depending on the context and in this context both apply. Am haaretz the context is generic peoplehood, am cohanim refers to nationality .also virtually all nations have ways to incorporate an alien be it citiazenship test or Halachic coversion mit a beis din.


34 posted on 01/19/2005 8:38:55 AM PST by avitot
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To: avitot

I don't have a concordance here, but I wonder whether a search of the Torah's use of the word "am" would show it used to refer to any other nations (am prizi, am hitti, etc.)


35 posted on 01/19/2005 8:56:39 AM PST by Piranha
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To: sgtbono2002
Israel did say that they'd keep an eye out for him.....
36 posted on 01/19/2005 9:07:21 AM PST by Ready4Freddy (Veni Vidi Velcro)
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To: DmBarch; Alouette

Actually, people who have Reform or Conservative conversions can return under the Law of Return, however they are not considered Jewish.


37 posted on 01/19/2005 9:07:39 AM PST by Bella_Bru (You're about as funny as a case sensitive search engine.)
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To: Bella_Bru

I think (but don't know for sure) that people who have a Reform or Conservative conversion can return under the law of return only if they had a Jewish parent or grandparent (who also was not Jewish just because of a Conservative or Reform conversion).


38 posted on 01/19/2005 9:08:59 AM PST by Piranha
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To: Piranha
people who have a Reform or Conservative conversion can return under the law of return only if they had a Jewish parent or grandparent

No, they can return, but they are not identified by the Ministry of the Interior as Jews. It was a compromise of sorts.

39 posted on 01/19/2005 9:16:07 AM PST by Bella_Bru (You're about as funny as a case sensitive search engine.)
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To: richardtavor
You are getting into details that I am not concerned about.
I am talking about the ethnic Jew as a race as opposed to
the religious Jew.

The ethnic Jew can be any religion that he/she wishes but
they are still a Jew.

The religious Jew can be of any ethnic group and convert to
being a Jew.

I know that there are various things that one group may or
may not do as far as religion is concerned. But my point is
in answer to the question is that a Jew can be either or both.

My problem was for years that a Jew was of a religion. However
somewhere back there in my head I also knew that it was also
ethnic.

These are two separate things operating under the same name
which has caused me so much confusion and it appears
confusion for many others.
40 posted on 01/19/2005 9:22:00 AM PST by cleo1939
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