Posted on 01/19/2005 6:18:17 AM PST by ComtedeMaistre
I met an old friend at a high school reunion, and he informed me of plans he has to make an aliyah (immigrate) to Israel. What is interesting about the individual, is that he is a self-proclaimed deist, but one who was raised in a Jewish household (both parents Jewish), which makes him eligible to immigrate under Israel's law of return.
From him, I came to learn that anyone with a Jewish parent is eligible to immigrate to Israel. However, a gentile who converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism, is not eligible under Israel's law of return.
What this means, is that an anti-zionist atheist like Noam Chomsky is free to immigrate to Israel, because of his ancestral lineage, while a gentile convert to Judaism is not (unless he undergoes an Orthodox conversion).
I would like some expert on the issue to explain to what extent Judaism is a religion, and to what extent Jewish identity is inherited (i.e. ethnic) According to Israel's law of return, more weight is given to ethnic Jewish identity than to actual religious beliefs.
I'm not sure why you are concerned about putting people into your categories. Your system may make sense to you, but it is irrelevant to observant Jews.
Jews -- at least religious ones -- don't believe that there is anything to your concept of the "ethnic Jew". That concept, which is the basis for Israel's Law of Return, exists only because non-Jews (Hitler) imposed it. (The turn-of-the-century mayor of Vienna, Karl Lueger, was famous for imposing anti-Jewish laws but associating with people who, under his rules, were "Jews." He famously retorted, "I'll decide who is a Jew.")
To religious Jews, a Jew is someone who's mother was Jewish (according to Jewish law) or who converts to Judaism (according to Jewish law).
Religious Jews would not feel a strong ethnic affinity to someone who's father was Jewish but who's mother was not Jewish (unless that person converted to Judaism).
Funny in a weird sort of way, Most forget Sammy only had one eye.
I've never been Jewish, which is why I think it's wild that I could make aliyah. And even though no one after my grandmother (to my knowledge) was Jewish in my family, I always felt a kinship with Israel and all Jewish people. So when I found out in my twenties that my grandmother had been Jewish, it explained a lot for me. Guess there was some latent spiritual/physical connection of some sort. :)
Besides Reform, Conservative and Orthodox there is mainstream Judaism, which represents the majority of Israelis. Reform and Conservative are not recognized because they are to Judaism is what scientology to Christianity. Those who convert to Judaism theough a regular mainstream sinagogue are recognized by the Israeli state. Although it is hard to convert since Judaism discourages conversion. And trying to figure out if Jews are a religion or an ethnical group is an excercise in futility. Let us all get a life instead.
if your maternal grandmother was jewish , than so are you.
My problem was for years that a Jew was of a religion. However
somewhere back there in my head I also knew that it was also
ethnic.
Since the creation of the State of Israel Jewish nationality has been obscured by Israeli nationality. The Law of Return simply makes it clear than anyone of Jewish nationality is also entitled to Israeli nationality. It does not matter whether one is haredi (black hat, ulta-orthodox), dati leumi (modern orthodox), or chiloni (secular). (FWIW: other groups such as masortim (conservative Jews) are not recognized by the State of Israel and are considered chilonim.)
Considering that the most pro-Israel folks in America are in America's Bible Belt,
Pro-Israel by American Christian standards, yes. Many of the view expressed by American Christian conservatives are the views of the far right ultra-nationalists in Israel. I think such views support policies that do Israel far more harm than good. That is from my Israeli, masorti Jewish, center-right (Likud supporter) perspective.
The Christian right opposes the giving away of even an inch of territory in the peace process.
Precisely my point. That is the road to national suicide and perpetual war. We would have an Arab majority within our borders in no time. We would hold Arab population centers with no hope of ever being free of conflict. What a disaster that would be.
allowing some of those folks to settle in Israel would actually strengthen the state of Israel.
Thankfully we do NOT allow that. We want our children to grow up Jewish not Christian. So long as the evangelical Christianity feels the necessity to prostletyze to Jews they will never be welcomed here except as visitors.
very well put . also jews from the former soviet union have on their identity card jewish as their nationality. it was only with the onset of reform judaism that people tried to separate nationhood from the jewish religion so as to become germans of the mosaic persuasion.
“That is the road to national suicide and perpetual war. We would have an Arab majority within our borders in no time. We would hold Arab population centers with no hope of ever being free of conflict. What a disaster that would be.”
I don't agree. I think it is, at best, a wildcard.
Even if there is no demographic timebomb it is foolish to try and control large hostile Arab population centers. Doing so is costing us far too many good Israeli lives in pointless conflict. I say pointless because holding places like Gaza with no role in Jewish history, no religious significance, and only a tiny Jewish population vis a vis a huge Arab population, does not serve our security needs or enhance Israel's ability to defend itself IMHO.
You identify yourself as a "Likud supporter" in supporting return of Gaza. Plenty of Likud oppose returning Gaza including Netanyahu.
The "pointless conflict" comment presupposes that returning Gaza or anything else will stop the conflict. That decision is not in the hands of Israelis nor am I so naive that I believe the Palestinians will be satisfied with any form of two state solution including return up to 1967 borders.
It is just a form of appeasement perceived by Arabs as weakness.
In my view rather than needing protection which many Left leaning Israelis oppose, the Israelis who live in Gaza and the West Bank are a first line of defense. Even if one removes religious reasons from the equation, for strategic reasons they are crucial.
Funny, Finance Minister Netanyahu has voted in favor of the Prime Minister's disengagement plan every time it has come to a vote. That's not terribly strong opposition, is it?
The "pointless conflict" comment presupposes that returning Gaza or anything else will stop the conflict.
It will not. It will, however, save many Jewish lives by making attacks like the one we saw in Gush Katif yesterday impossible. Only one attack by Palestinians who infiltrated Israel proper from Gaza has succeeded: the Ashdod port bombing. The fence and the IDF along it can block 99%+ of Palestinian attempts at mass murder inside Israel.
That decision is not in the hands of Israelis
I disagree. We can make it nearly impossible for the Palestinians to inflict significant harm on us if we control their borders and fence them in.
It is just a form of appeasement
I disagree. It is withdrawal, but to a defensible line. The settlements in Gaza are not defensible.
Even if one removes religious reasons from the equation
Irrelevant. There are NO religious reasons for staying in Gaza.
for strategic reasons they are crucial.
I think quite the contrary. It is precisely for strategic reasons that they must go.
A Jewish boy comes home from school and tells his mother he's been given a part in the school play.
"Wonderful. What part is it?"
The boy says, "I play the part of the Jewish husband."
The mother scowls and says, "Go back and tell the teacher you want a speaking part."
< / rimshot >
Does anyone remember the funny but very prophetic song from many years back(circa 1950s)which jokingly said, "It's in the Book", oh yes, it's in the Book alright.
If any want to know what Book, forget it, the answer would only confound the more those who asked the question!
As a non-Jew I attended a Conservative synagogue for awhile. There were two rabbis, the older of which always wanted to consider me in a minyan while the younger one always balked.
It was frequently awkward as the shul always struggled for a Saturday minyan.
As I said, I attended for awhile....
Very funny.
What I cannot understand is: who cares? Why do people want to know? Of what relevance is this issue to being Jewish?
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