Perfect John Adams quote showing that Religion has a place in government (Vanity)

[AVNevis]

I was doing reasearch this evening for a debate tournament I am participating in a couple of weeks when I came upon this quote:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams

It seems to me this just nails the aclu argument about separation of church and state. Here we have a founding father stating that the constitution does not work if the people are not moral and religious. It seems to me we should be using this quote much more often in debates with liberals.

[eagle11]

(Islam) isn't in America to be equal to any other faith,
but to become dominant. The (Qur'an) should be the highest authority in America, and (Islam) the only accepted religion on earth.

(Christianity) isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The (Bible) should be the highest authority in America, and (Christianity) the only accepted religion on earth.

[Swordmaker]

Of course the liberals will claim it was fabricated. They can't take the fact that moral men of religion founded the country.

No, they won't claim it was fabricated. They know he said it. They just don't care. He's a dead white guy... they don't count.

[nickcarraway]

Why did John Adams have to take a cheap shot at Clinton?

[scars]

Which "civil" states are those? Last time I checked the US was about 92% chistian.

[Torie]

The happy thing though is that most Christians in America really don't accept the second paragraph in their hearts, even if that is in the fine print of the religion. Most Christians are live and let live folks, who respect and protect the right of each individual to find they own way. Indeed, only if acceptance of Christ is wholly voluntary and genuine, made by a sentient adult, is it something in which to rejoice. That is my sense of it, as one who has not traveled that path.

[scars]

chistian=christian

[Torie]

Most of Western Europe, and Taiwan come to mind.

[scars]

I'm sorry, I was thinking of home. Point well taken.

[so_real]

Here's another one for your arsenal from President George Washington:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

[cicero's_son]

It's a great quote, but there's one problem:

Liberals don't like John Adams.

[GoLightly]

If you want more material than you can possibly use...

http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/

[claudiustg]

---Most of Western Europe, and Taiwan come to mind.---

And Japan and South Korea and others, but given the history of the last century the jury is still out on the lot.

[eagle11]

My point is that both religions are missionary, they seek converts all over the world. However, in much of the world, Islam is influenced by militants that equate converting others to conquest and enslavement. I still believe that enough Muslims don't accept this, and now in places like Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan moderate intellectuals and feminists are starting to challenge the radicals. I have no doubt that Bush's hardline stance on terrorism and the Afghan elections have alot to do with this trend.

[risk]

Adams was one of the more devout among our Founding Fathers. As it turned out we needed the religious zealots and the skeptics alike to form our government. They created a sound balance to one another. In any case, there was a lot of discussion that went on outside of the Constitution. What went into the Constitution is what became our law. The states themselves adopted similar injunctions against religious establishment, including the state of Alabama.

A land which needs to declare the religious beliefs of its citizens through government is a land either gripped by tyranny or fear. We would be both if we suddenly had to announce our religion from Washington DC. It would automatically exclude a lot of people from the right to government with representation. It would also strike fear into many more, many who know the true history of the Reformation and the secular causes for religious civil war.

The Enlightenment freed us to follow our own beliefs in private while using reason and persuasion to establish our laws. The Founding Fathers as well as being mainly Christian were also the best political students of the Enlightenment we know. And they knew better than to establish a state religion or even found this nation on a particular religion. They knew that it was the people whose own beliefs would matter. John Adams does not contradict that argument in any way.

The right defense against Islamism is to remove it from America. Its stated purpose of a religious state is in direct opposition to our Constitution; in fact, it is tantamount to open sedition. The right defense of religious liberty is to keep religion and government separate. We are a nation of laws, not men. Men have their beliefs. The law stands on reason. Any law that doesn't belongs to those who follow them without explanation. And yes, most of the 10 commandments have logical, well-reasoned meanings that we can use to convince each other are just.

In fact, the second amendment, based on our sacred, inalienable right to self-defense, is a far superior protection of religious freedom than any addition we could make to our Constitution today. Never forget that. The minute you do will be the minute someone, somewhere begings to scheme a way to announce your religious beliefs for you. Quite in opposition to what the contemporary liberals believe, arms are the Enlightenment's best friend. They are also the Christian's best friend, as the Swiss proved in their early role in the Reformation.

[cicero's_son]

Well there are some civil states with a democratic tradition that are largely not religious now. So Adams was wrong.

For the time being, at least.

[scars]

Wow, I had to read that three times to make sense of it, but when I got through the flowerly prose, I agreed 100%. He must have really knocked the socks off those 18th century folks.

[NoCmpromiz]

Noted your later post (#18) stating that this was not the topic of your debate, but should you want to pursue this topic in your research, might I suggest checking out "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. Bunches of good info (documented) that among other things debunks the oft mentioned platitude that the founding fathers were only deists and has been posted here...

[Torie]

While I don't agree with or question, or wonder about, some of the points in you post, it is so well crafted and written, that I am just going to let it stand as is. Good job.

[phoenix0468]

excellent post risk

[so_real]

Wow, I had to read that three times to make sense of it, but when I got through the flowerly prose, I agreed 100%. He must have really knocked the socks off those 18th century folks.

He was an amazing orator wasn't he! However, I must honestly say I believe that speech would only shock *our* contemporaries. Washington's contemporaries shared in his beliefs. In fact, in the same speech he addresses his fellow citizens saying: "With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles."

I'm glad you liked the quote. If you'd like the whole speech, click here.