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Dearth Of Information About Christ's Crucifixion Makes It Impossible To Render Accurate Account
WSVN ^

Posted on 02/20/2004 9:37:29 AM PST by Recovering_Democrat

JERUSALEM -- The dearth of information about Jesus' Crucifixion makes it impossible to describe the event in accurate detail, as Mel Gibson attempts to do in his new film, "The Passion of the Christ," biblical scholars and anthropologists say.

The Crucifixion is the centerpiece of the movie, set to open in U.S. theaters Feb. 25, Ash Wednesday on the Roman Catholic calendar.

People who have seen the movie say it adopts standard Christian imagery in excruciating detail: Jesus being pinioned to a Latin cross -- a T-shaped device with a short upper extension -- with one nail driven through both feet and one through each palm.

In a December e-mail sent to The Associated Press, Gibson said he did "an immense amount of reading" to supplement the Bible's relatively unadorned account of the Crucifixion in the four Gospels.

"I consulted a huge number of theologians, scholars, priests, spiritual writers," Gibson wrote. "The film is faithful to the Gospels but I had to fill in a lot of details -- like the way Jesus would have carried His cross, or whether the nails went through the palms of His hands or his wrists ... Since the experts canceled each other out, I was thrown back on my own resources to weigh the different arguments and decide for myself."

Some scholars say even the most widely recognized features of the crucifixion, such as the shape of the cross and the use of nails, are open to debate.

James F. Strange, professor of religious studies at the University of South Florida in Tampa, said 1st century historian Josephus provided only general information, probably because crucifixion was so common that details seemed superfluous.

Crucifixion was first used in the 5th century B.C., and was a widely used form of execution in Asia, Europe and Africa for the ensuing eight centuries, said Israeli anthropologist Joe Zias. Depending on technique, death could be swift or take days.

"If you suspended people by their hands and left their feet free you would kill them within an hour," Zias said. "If you suspended them in a way they couldn't exhale they'd be dead within minutes."

Zias said the question of whether Jesus was nailed to the cross or simply tied to it remains a mystery. "There is no evidence whatsoever he was nailed," he said. "The Gospels say he was crucified and leave it at that."

Zias criticized "The Passion of The Christ" for accepting the standard version of three nails being used. He said experiments on cadavers carried out by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages have shown that people hanging with nails through their hands will fall to the ground within a relatively short time, pulled by gravity.

The Gospels suggest it took Jesus three to six hours to die.

"All this is Crucifixion 101," Zias said. "People who study these things understand them. But Gibson ignored them in his film."

John Dominic Crossan, emeritus professor of religious studies at DePaul University in Chicago, agrees with Zias that little is known about Jesus' execution.

"Early Christians believed that Jesus was nailed to the cross," he said. "But there is absolutely no proof of this. The only skeleton of a crucified person ever recovered indicated that the two arms were tied to a crossbar, and two nails were used in either shinbone. There was no standard procedure in any of this. The only common feature in the different types of crucifixion is intense sadism."

The type of cross in Jesus' execution is also in question, Crossan said. First century Romans are known to have used both a T-shaped device, without an upper extension, and the Latin cross that is standard in Christian iconography.

Each of the four Gospels says an inscription mocking Jesus as the "king of the Jews" was affixed to the cross. Crossan said this would have made sense "because the whole point of crucifixion was to warn people through alluding to a specific crime."

Two of the Gospels say the inscription was mounted above Jesus. This presumably would strengthen the argument for a Latin cross, which would have provided space for writing about the condemned man's head.

However, the other two Gospels don't give a locator. "It (the written warning) could just as easily have hung around his neck," Crossan said.

Crossan is also uncertain whether the cross on which Jesus was crucified was carried to the execution grounds -- either by Simon of Cyrene, as three of the Gospels report, or by Jesus himself, according to John's account.

It is possible that the vertical part of the cross was kept at Golgotha, the place of Jesus' death, and that the condemned person carried the crossbar, Crossan said.

"The point is we simply don't know," he said, "not in general cases and not in the case of Jesus either." (AP)


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bible; jesus
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To: Recovering_Democrat
I've got a great source for liberals who don't think we know what happened to Jesus:

Keep in mind that liberals consider that "hate literature".

21 posted on 02/20/2004 10:19:28 AM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
We don't know what happened, but we're going to criticize how Gibson represents it, anyway.

This movie is such a Rorschach test.

22 posted on 02/20/2004 10:24:32 AM PST by AmishDude
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Good job!
23 posted on 02/20/2004 10:25:23 AM PST by LiteKeeper
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
"Hands" in the ancient world were often taken to mean elbow to fingertip (believed to be the measure of a cubit, BTW).

If the nails were in his palms, his hands would have been ripped apart in a matter of minutes.

24 posted on 02/20/2004 10:27:06 AM PST by AmishDude
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To: Alberta's Child
What you say, though, is profoundly strong evidence that the Shroud is not a purposeful fraud. But it does not prove that it was Christ's shroud.
25 posted on 02/20/2004 10:29:47 AM PST by AmishDude
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Agreed.

It's hard to believe that with all the leg work involved (contacting professors, research, editing etc.) that must have went in to this nifty piece, they couldn't take two seconds and type "nailed" into any kind of search mechanism.

In other words this piece seems to be nothing more than the worst reporting possible or an intentional blatant lie.

26 posted on 02/20/2004 10:30:07 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
So, since there's so little info, maybe we can go so far as to say it never even happened. < /sarcasm >
27 posted on 02/20/2004 10:30:19 AM PST by BlessedBeGod
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To: Recovering_Democrat
The English translation you are using of Acts reads something into the text that isn't there in the Greek--the Greek word means "to affix to a cross" but doesn't indicate whether a nail is involved or not. On the other hand, the Greek texts of John 20.25 and Colossians 2.14 do show that nails were used. See my post #129 on thread 1081493 (there is a link at post #7 of this thread).
28 posted on 02/20/2004 10:31:10 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Nothing that the non Christian Crossen says changes anything material about the crucifixion.
29 posted on 02/20/2004 10:33:22 AM PST by Protagoras (When they asked me what I thought of freedom in America,,, I said I thought it would be a good idea.)
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To: Recovering_Democrat; Barnacle; Salem; Dubya; Geist Krieger; dennisw

"I consulted a huge number of theologians, scholars, priests, spiritual writers," Gibson wrote. "The film is faithful to the Gospels but I had to fill in a lot of details -- like the way Jesus would have carried His cross, or whether the nails went through the palms of His hands or his wrists ... Since the experts canceled each other out, I was thrown back on my own resources to weigh the different arguments and decide for myself."

The devil shows up with his artful and crafty confusion even before Passion hits the streets . .

This rendition of the Crucifixtion of Christ must really have all the demons of Hollywood cringing in their holes.

30 posted on 02/20/2004 10:34:51 AM PST by Happy2BMe (U.S.A. - - United We Stand - - Divided We Fall - - Support Our Troops - - Vote BUSH)
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To: Verginius Rufus
Thanks for the clarification, Verg. I am not a student of the original languages, obviously. :)
31 posted on 02/20/2004 10:35:41 AM PST by Recovering_Democrat (I'm so glad to no longer be associated with the Party of Dependence on Government!)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Since these writers will not accept the historical facts in the New Testament, they try to write their own poorly researched "hysterical" novels about their imaginings as to what THEY think OUGHT to have happened instead.

If anybody uses the expression "historical Jesus," remember that that means their own fiction, not the Scriptural facts.
32 posted on 02/20/2004 10:37:56 AM PST by Chris Talk (What Earth now is, Mars once was. What Mars now is, Earth will become.)
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To: AmishDude
You're right. That's just one piece of evidence.

In my opinion, the piece of evidence that is even more compelling than just the location of the nail wounds is the "four-finger" phenomenon on the Shroud. If you look closely at the image, it appears from the configuration of the hands that the person who was wrapped in the Shroud is missing both thumbs.

This in fact is the result of a reflexive action of the human body when one of the three major nerves in the wrist (I believe it is the ulnar nerve) is damaged -- in effect, the thumb is drawn across the palm of the hand in such a way that from the "back" side of the hand it is no longer visible.

Again, this does not "prove" that the Shroud is authentic -- but the notion that someone in the 12th century would have been able to account for this kind of detail borders on preposterous.

33 posted on 02/20/2004 10:38:42 AM PST by Alberta's Child (Alberta -- the TRUE North strong and free.)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
Dearth Of Information About Christ's Crucifixion Makes It Impossible To Render Accurate Account

There is more historical information for the crucifixion of Jesus and information that is closer to the event in question than there is for anything else during that era.
34 posted on 02/20/2004 10:42:17 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Recovering_Democrat
These folks like Zias are either utter morons or deliberately not wanting to know.
35 posted on 02/20/2004 10:43:21 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Recovering_Democrat
I notice it never occurs to these guys that it's not an either or proposition. You could nail somebody to the cross AND tie them up, the obvious advantage being that more open wound hastens bleeding to death. I'm also kind of amazed that they'd want Mel to go against the religious iconography just for their version of accuracy; if I were making a movie about the crucifiction even if I had absolute proof positive that no nail ever touched Jesus' flesh I'd still have him nailed to the cross in the movie. Don't mess with 2000 year-old symbols all that will happens is everybody will discuss that 1 moment in the film and ignore everything else.
36 posted on 02/20/2004 10:49:32 AM PST by discostu (but this one has 11)
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To: Recovering_Democrat
The only skeleton of a crucified person ever recovered indicated that the two arms were tied to a crossbar, and two nails were used in either shinbone.

This is incorrect. I've have heard of at least one skeleton being recovered of a person known to have been crucified that showed nail wounds through the wrists. The radius bones showed wear consistent with the victim pushing himself up to breath and then slouching back down. The pivot points for the arms were the nails. At these points, the nails began to wear notches into the bone.

37 posted on 02/20/2004 10:55:25 AM PST by Redcloak (FREE THE CHEESE! FREE THE CHEESE! FREE THE CHEESE! FREE THE CHEESE! FREE THE CHEESE! FREE THE CHEESE)
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To: Alberta's Child
I saw a documentary on this once. The points you brought up were on the pro side. There was some testing that suggested that it could not have been from the first century. (I don't think it was carbon-14, but it might have been.)
38 posted on 02/20/2004 10:57:06 AM PST by AmishDude
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To: ffusco
Most of which was written almost a thousand years after his death....
39 posted on 02/20/2004 11:00:13 AM PST by jnarcus
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To: Alberta's Child
This in fact is the result of a reflexive action of the human body when one of the three major nerves in the wrist (I believe it is the ulnar nerve) is damaged -- in effect, the thumb is drawn across the palm of the hand in such a way that from the "back" side of the hand it is no longer visible.

Median. The motor supply to the thenar musculature (the bulky base of the thumb on the palm side) is part median, part ulnar. The median nerve passes almost dead center across the wrist, the ulnar on the ulnar side (little finger side).

A nail driven into the center of the wrist, to pass between the radius and ulna, would impinge the median nerve.

40 posted on 02/20/2004 11:03:55 AM PST by Taliesan (fiction police)
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