Posted on 02/24/2022 6:58:05 AM PST by DiogenesLamp
Seceded state about to be reacquired by the Union. Which side should we root for?
Well, the circumstances of the Russian invasion of 2022 have almost no analogy to the southern rebellion in 1861 so as usual you’re muddying the waters. I debated whether to respond because basically I usually ignore any post you make about modern events because they’re completely irrelevant to the Civil War, but I just wanted to let you know that your post was neither thought-provoking nor amusing.
Another DimLamp epic fail.
Glad you liked it. Even "dumbest thing" requires creativity.
No, because our founding document (Declaration of Independence) says they have an expressed right to leave if they wish, and in historical context, all states that left under that document, did so without permission from the "Union".
I'm sure they do, but in this particular case it was the Victors who wrote the myths.
What losers wrote nobody knows because the Victors controlled the printing presses.
Ukraine was not part of Russia historically. It HAS been taken by force several times by Russia.
The American south was part of the original 13 colonies and joined together under the Constitution from the beginning.
No equation between Ukraine and America.
If you want to play that game, Poland has every claim to Ukraine that Russia does.
Neither was Belgium. Or Poland. Or Czechoslovakia.
You get the drift.
I suspect had germany not declared war on us that we would have focused on japan.
LOL! Texas can't keep the heat on in the winter and the a/c on in the summer. If they secede then whenever their electrical grid goes belly up or a hurricane nails them then who will they go crying to for help?
LOLOL What on earth you babbling about??? You Pooty butt lickers are the ones playing games. I don’t even know what pretzel your twisting yourself into to try to claim. You people have come just as unglued as Pooty.
Ukraine has always had a Ukranian language and culture. It has been attacked and invaded repeatedly, but it’s culture survived. It does not belong to Russia OR Poland.
Take your false history and Russian propaganda and shove it.
Your Pooty is a bastard, and so are his defenders.
All one has to do is look at your posts to see that the losers in this case have raised myth-making to a high art.
And your imagination knows no bounds.
What Putin is doing has much akin to what the Jefferson Davis and Confederacy was trying to do: he's trying to break off territory that he claims has an affinity with Russia. That is what Braxton Bragg was trying to do when he invaded Kentucky in the belief that the state belonged in the Confederacy because it had slavery.
I'm not sure I grasp the point you are wanting me to address.
Given that Russia wants to prevent Ukraine from entering NATO, the situation is more analogous to the US invading Cuba under the Monroe Doctrine.
Well that is their stated reason, and it may very well be their actual reason, but I have long since learned to not simply accept at face value what people tell me.
I saw an earlier article/comment that Russia wants control of a pipeline that transits Ukraine.
What is the truth? I don't know yet.
The 14th amendment, like the 2nd amendment, has been perverted to mean something different than what the authors intended. You can argue if it is poorly written, but it doesn’t change the original intent.
But it is the very fact that it is written so badly that has allowed it to be perverted in the manner it has been.
Also, the manner in which it was passed, (completely against the will of the Southern states who ratified it because their governments were under the control of Washington DC) makes it less than a legitimate amendment.
If the will of the people had been allowed to be expressed, just as the Constitution intended it to be, that amendment would not have passed.
So your argument is this: "Because those people are bad, they give up their right to independence as articulated in the Declaration of Independence.
Well the Union was bad too. (I know, tu quoque.)
Article IV, section 2. Clause 3
No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.
If you aren't grasping it, it means fugitive slaves must be returned to their masters, and it is a constitutional law of the *UNION* constitution.
So by applying the "they are bad" standard, does this mean the Union had no right to separate from England?
I don't see where that is an issue of "independence." Does it say in there somewhere that states cannot leave the CSA?
*THAT* would be an issue of independence.
A Club may have rules, and so long as you are a member, you must abide by their rules. But you *ALWAYS* have the right to leave the club.
If you want to parse meanings sufficiently, you can obtain that interpretation.
I debated whether to respond because basically I usually ignore any post you make about modern events because they’re completely irrelevant to the Civil War,
I may be mistaken, but if I recall properly, all the posts to which I have linked you deal with modern day corrupt of the deep state and crony capitalist influence over our government policies.
That you think they are irrelevant is the consequence of you refusing to recognize the same influences pushing the Lincoln government into power, and thence to war.
but I just wanted to let you know that your post was neither thought-provoking nor amusing.
To the contrary! It has provided me with several hours of mirth! :)
No controversy that this thing has been debated endlessly. I assume that the debate is a proxy for something else in the minds of men like DL whom I respect greatly as a historian if I cannot always agree with him. I could say the same about certain of the anti-lost-causers, the Lincoln Lovers, here on FR who are on the other side of that historical debate.
I don’t agree with you that what is going on in Ukraine is immaterial to that argument, I can see DL’s point, but I do agree that the argument is immaterial to our future (or it should be). It should not prevent us from considering a viable and peaceful way into a conservative future, or to use your phrase, to consider the morality or practicality of secession as a future solution to the problems in our country which fall under the umbrella term, “Civil War II”.
Lost-Causers are making a mistake in justifying the cause as if there was no deep state in the CSA. The Lincoln Lovers make the same error when they imagine US Grant and the Army of the Potomac “trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored.” Going forward we ask God’s help in resisting evil, because I cannot prove to you who these swamp devils are now any more than I could throughout history.
1) Our posterity will live under a Democrat tyranny! I say this regardless what it may be called at the time, probably Republican.
2) Electing a conservative president does NOT stop it.
3) Confirming a conservative justice does not stop it.
4) Voting for the lesser of two Rino evils does not stop it.
5) The left has signaled and demonstrated their violent even deadly murderous commitment to their cause.
6) Our side has signaled capitulation.
Please DL or K51 or anyone, tell me where and why I am wrong, with my sincere thanks. Remember my FRiends, we win in the end with God’s help! Kind Freegards and thanks to JimRob and all the others for this place.
It joined together under the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It produced a governing charter in the Articles of Confederation in 1781. (Yes, we were a Confederacy) and finally our governing charter was the US Constitution in 1789.
To get to the Constitution, the framers of the US Constitution had to break the laws specified in the Articles of Confederation which required the Unanimous consent of all states that were members.
They did not get it, but they did it anyway. They also broke the Articles of Confederation in several other particulars, they then coerced Rhode Island into joining by threatening to cut them off from all trade with the rest of the states.
No equation between Ukraine and America.
I think you mean to say they are different in one particular, but that is not the same as proving they are nothing alike.
They want independence. The Southern States wanted independence. They are being invaded by a more powerful force that had no right to invade them. The Southern states were invaded by a more powerful force that had no right to invade them.
Lot of similarities between the two.
One would think, but it is my understanding Roosevelt was desperate for a way to join the fight in Europe, and I would guess he likely would have found a way to do it, or rigged an event (as some say he did at Pearl Harbor) to accomplish that goal.
I just read the other day that Roosevelt forbid recordings or note taking in his presence. We can only rely on second hand accounts to get any insight into what he thought during his meetings.
He sounds like he may have been a conniver, because what other reason would someone have for forbidding records of what they said?
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