Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Lowly Amphora (and ancient contact across the oceans)
The Mathisen Corollary ^ | Monday, February 6, 2012 | David Warner Mathisen

Posted on 06/01/2015 10:43:47 AM PDT by SunkenCiv

Professor Elizabeth Lyding Will (1924 - 2009...) was one of the world's leading authorities on amphoras, an ancient two-handled container that her research demonstrated to be vitally important for tracing ancient trade patterns and for opening windows on tremendous amounts of information about ancient life and commerce.

In a 2000 article entitled "The Roman Amphora: learning from storage jars," she discusses the diverse uses of "the lowly Roman amphora -- a two-handled clay jar used by the Canaanites, Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans to ship goods," describing both its main usage for the transportation of liquids including wine, olive oil, and fish sauce, and its many other auxiliary uses, from funerary urn to acoustic enhancement device in theaters.

It makes fascinating reading, but the most intriguing aspect of the article, perhaps, comes in the final paragraph, in which Professor Lyding states that she has in her possession a fragment from one of the controversial amphoras found in Guanabara Bay outside of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, and that she believes its characteristics may indicate a date of the third century AD.

This 1985 article from the New York Times explains that the bay is littered with shipwrecks, but that a particular submerged reef within the bay is known for the ancient jars that local fishermen have reported hauling up in their nets for years (hence the informal moniker, "Bay of Jars"). In the 1970s, the article reports, "a Brazilian diver brought up two complete jars with twin handles, tapering at the bottom, the kind that ancient Mediterranean peoples widely used for storage and are known as amphoras."

This piqued the interest of Florida author Robert Marx, who obtained permission to dive at the site in late 1982, and found the remains of over 200 broken amphoras as well as several complete amphoras.

(Excerpt) Read more at mathisencorollary.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: ageofsail; amphora; amphorae; ancientnavigation; bayofjars; brazil; canaanites; davidwarnermathisen; elizabethlydingwill; fishsauce; godsgravesglyphs; greeks; guanabarabay; kouass; lixus; mathisencorollary; morocco; nauticalarchaeology; navigation; oliveoil; phoenicians; riodejaneiro; riojars; robertmarx; romanempire; wine
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-69 next last
To: SunkenCiv

Yeah, yeah.

I know the standard spiel about how the narrow tip supposedly allows them to be packed in tighter in the Roman vessel of the time.

Don’t buy it. No way that is as efficient overall to load, lift, carry, or stow than a flat-bottom (or better yet, a flat-side) container. So, if it fits better in a rounded hull vessel, how does it fit in a granary or warehouse? Or on the dock, the cart, or the barge?


21 posted on 06/01/2015 11:43:02 AM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly, but socialists' ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

A flatter bigger bottom would mean more ways to break and lose the liquid contents when setting it down too hard or onto an uneven surface. Pointed bottom can be reinforced with more clay, maybe with added straw for strength, and makes sure through its very design that no one can just leave it sitting somewhere without first having to put it into some kind of protective rack. So the design is protective of the liquid contents both physically and psychologically.


22 posted on 06/01/2015 11:44:35 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE

I’m with you Robert. The design doesn’t make sense to me as a Mechanical Engineer either. But there is a reason. God knows there are a gazillion of those things on the ocean floor, so the design is no accident.


23 posted on 06/01/2015 11:55:27 AM PDT by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: The_Victor

I have wondered the same thing but suspected that Romans at least partially solved the problem by meting out severe whippings to anyone who broke an amphora while handling it.

How many lashes would you get for spilling 80 gal. of the governor’s wine, vinegar or olive oil on the dock? lol


24 posted on 06/01/2015 11:56:49 AM PDT by TigersEye (If You Are Ignorant, Don't Vote!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: The_Victor

They were probably pointed so as to insure that they were stacked in an upright position using a rack or other means, like soft clay or sand in the bottom of the ship. The sealing methods were probably not that great at the time, so if they were tilted they would leak or become tainted. ...........just a guess.............


25 posted on 06/01/2015 12:11:57 PM PDT by Red Badger (Man builds a ship in a bottle. God builds a universe in the palm of His hand.............)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: The_Victor

Just looked it up on Wiki:

Neck amphorae were commonly used in the early history of ancient Greece, but were gradually replaced by the one-piece type from around the 7th century BC onward. Most were produced with a pointed base to allow upright storage by embedding in soft ground, such as sand.
Amphora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmphoraWikipedia


26 posted on 06/01/2015 12:12:49 PM PDT by Red Badger (Man builds a ship in a bottle. God builds a universe in the palm of His hand.............)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE; SunkenCiv; The_Victor

27 posted on 06/01/2015 12:14:12 PM PDT by Red Badger (Man builds a ship in a bottle. God builds a universe in the palm of His hand.............)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE; The_Victor; SunkenCiv

Clay, terra-cotta, mud straw reinforced brick were tried and tested technologies at the time. Easy to shape, waterproof,with the round shap lending strength, and finally cheap to make.

Name other materials and processes available in that period that satisfy those specs.

Squared corners of what material? What fasteners that would withstand the liquid loads? What waterproofing was available at the time that would not affect the taste of wines or oils? Not much market for bitumen flavored wine or oil is there? Okay... bring up Greek retsina and you might make a case.

;>)

And finally the narrow necks and spouts are quickly and effectively sealed with the wax plugs. Minimize the edge length and you minimize the potential for intrusion of air and spillage.

All in all an elegant solution proven out over an extended period of time and the market forces of that era. Simple economics 101.

Greek art shows the tapered amphorae sitting in metal ring stands as well as women carrying shorter smaller vessels on their shoulders and heads.


28 posted on 06/01/2015 12:16:08 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

Right. I’m agreeing they (sort of) fit) - with the “six-pack” type of holder for thepointed end.

But the wasted space (between and around the amphora inside the hull) is more than 5x the volume inside the bottles!


29 posted on 06/01/2015 12:47:24 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly, but socialists' ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE

They probably stuffed the intermediate areas with other cargo whenever possible, and straw or other stuff to keep them from knocking together in rough seas.............


30 posted on 06/01/2015 12:53:36 PM PDT by Red Badger (Man builds a ship in a bottle. God builds a universe in the palm of His hand.............)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Robert A. Cook, PE

[ But the wasted space (between and around the amphora inside the hull) is more than 5x the volume inside the bottles! ]

You could always pack in grain around them racks.


31 posted on 06/01/2015 12:53:56 PM PDT by GraceG (Protect the Border from Illegal Aliens, Don't Protect Illegal Alien Boarders...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: The_Victor

Wide base will break more easily. A roundish container with small ends is stronger.


32 posted on 06/01/2015 1:06:18 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

It is said that Phoenicians discovered America, so who knows. I mean, the Aztecs said white skinned people from the east are GODS.


33 posted on 06/01/2015 1:08:24 PM PDT by ExCTCitizen (I'm ExCTCitizen and I approve this reply. If it does offend Libs, I'm NOT sorry...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Louis Foxwell
A roundish container with small ends is stronger.

Like the shape of a bird's egg. The conical end can take more impact than the sides.

34 posted on 06/01/2015 1:13:02 PM PDT by TigersEye (If You Are Ignorant, Don't Vote!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Covenantor

They didn’t leak; had they leaked, they’d have never made it even a few miles. Besides the exterior pitch, they were built to remain tight while being flexible in the rise and fall of the water.


35 posted on 06/01/2015 1:16:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (What do we want? REGIME CHANGE! When do we want it? NOW!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

sorry, I read it as loose grain used as base for amphorae, not as grain in jars.

Yeah, the waterproofed plugs retained integrity even after being submerged for so long.


36 posted on 06/01/2015 1:26:22 PM PDT by Covenantor ("Men are ruled...by liars who refuse them news, and by fools who cannot govern." Chesterton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Well I’ll be darned. Have got Marx’s Shipwrecks in the Americas sitting on the table right next to me and was re-reading a bit last night.

IIRC, Marx also said about the amphorae finds that some of them would be brought up in nets and that fishermen would destroy them to prevent snagging them again.

Have not some building ruins included round holes in shelves or worktops where the containers could be placed? Kind of like a big cup holder. Convenient in a home or storefront, tavern or anywhere you needed to dip out a cupful at a time and it wouldn’t be knocked over.

Would seem like the stevedores and warehousemen or anybody else handling these things would grab the pointed end with one hand and handle with the other and heave them onto a shoulder.


37 posted on 06/01/2015 1:43:41 PM PDT by Rockpile
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Something else about these clay containers. If some that were NOT glazed were aboard ship then ropes could be afixed and one could be placed into the sea and water would pass through to the interior and maybe produce drinking water by filtering out most of the salt.

Might be somewhat brackish but I’d give that a try as a supplemental supply to the shipboard stores. Kinda the reverse of a garden pot.


38 posted on 06/01/2015 1:52:20 PM PDT by Rockpile
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: TigersEye

Like that.


39 posted on 06/01/2015 2:16:06 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Covenantor; SunkenCiv

DeGaulle didn’t discriminate, did he? He was a pain in the @$$ to everyone.


40 posted on 06/01/2015 2:30:01 PM PDT by colorado tanker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-69 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson