Posted on 01/07/2011 11:49:13 PM PST by smokingfrog
In the Sixties, a groundbreaking series of experiments found that 65 per cent of us would kill if ordered to do so.
We have vain brains; we see ourselves as better than we really are. We like to think that we exercise free will, that put into a situation where we were challenged to do something we thought unacceptable then we'd refuse. But, if you believe that, then you are probably deluded.
I make this claim, based partly on the work of psychologist Stanley Milgram. Milgram devised and carried out ingenious experiments that exposed the frailty and self-delusion that are central to our lives. He showed how easy it is to make ordinary people do terrible things, that "evil" often happens for the most mundane of reasons.
I first read about Milgram's work when I was a banker in the Seventies, working in the City. I was so fascinated by his ideas that I re-trained as a doctor, with the intention of becoming a psychiatrist. Instead I became a science journalist. Recently I got the chance to make The Brain: A Secret History, a television series which reveals how much we have learnt about ourselves through the work of some of the 20th century's most influential, and deeply flawed, psychologists.
In the course of making the series we found rare archive and first-hand accounts of the many inventive and sometimes sinister ways in which experimental psychology has been used to probe, tease, control and manipulate human behaviour. High on the list of psychologists I wanted to learn more about was Stanley Milgram.
The son of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, Milgram struggled to understand how it was that German soldiers in the Second World War were persuaded to take part in barbaric acts, such as the Holocaust.
(Excerpt) Read more at belfasttelegraph.co.uk ...
I fail to see the contradiction. Call me cynical.
People who are courteous are eager to please, just like the people willing to kill on someone else’s say so...
I think you have a point, but I believe it is contextual.
If you put someone in a situation which plausibly seems to comply with social norms, then -- yes, they might go along if it seems to them to be the 'appropriate' thing to do.
The volunteers in the program had little external reference -- just the 'professor' in the lab coat and a person who seemed to be a willing partner. They were on their own, and it seemed appropriate to shock a person who was, in all reality, anonymous.
The people on the subway who gave up their seats likely (yes, I know -- assumptions are what they are) had little external reference for their decision to give up their seat. I would have been interested to know if the researcher approached individuals, members of a group, people of approximately the same social level, on a crowded train (one would suppose) or a near-empty one.
But the connection between courtesy and compliance? I'm not so sure. I've met some very courteous people who were extremely independent. And some very rude people who would go along with whatever was asked, but b1tch about it the entire time.
Finally, an explanation of why Obama was elected!
Seriously, this is a fascinating article. It demonstrates why our form of government (as original) is the absolute best in the world. Government must be small and limited in power. Our cultural morality must be determined by the “We the People” (35% ?) and NOT by Big Brother government.
I am firmly in the courteous but very independent group.
My view is that the majority of people are very weak-willed and lack conviction. They can be easily manipulated—and that is what Milgram’s experiment showed.
The weak willed folks could be polite or belligerent—I have seen many of both.
Courtesy is not a reliable indicator.
It all breaks down to people who act on principle (maybe 50%) and people who don’t. The principled people break down further into a group that is largely emotional (how does something ‘feel’) and those that approach things from a more rational basis. Of course, these lines are not clearly defined and we all vary in one degree or another. However, it does explain why most people go along with the crowd and the dissenters are usually rational or emotional. Strangely enough, it also explains politics . . .
65 percent of "us" weren't around in the 60's. Or were just toddlers.
No, some researchers decided that 65% of those they experimented on were likely to kill someone on orders. I doubt much else was "proven."
Exactly why people who read of some of the outrageous goals, methods, etc., of the Left just refuse to believe they're real.
When I was traveling with my elderly mother, I was very pleasantly surprised by how almost always younger people—teens, twens, up to 50s, on the subways in Boston and New York got up to offer her a seat. She was quite fit at 89. Often they offered me a seat, too, but being 34 years younger, I usually declined. We saw this happen with many others, veterans with disabilities, pregnant women, a 30ish man who seemed unable to hold on (due to MS I learned from overhearing subsequent conversation-—which is difficult in these unnecessarily noisy subway trains).
There is a cultural norm of courtesy and caring. I think this has nothing to do with ‘morality’, since these situations are not covered by any 10 or the whole 613 Commandments.
This was free will, motivated by “what I should do as a member of society”. And as God wishes me to do.
Yes, that is the biggest problem with all psychology experiments; they’re all performed on the same people - young western college students. And then the researcher tries to generalize what he’s learned about that demographic as if it necessarily applied to all demographics.
Free Will is largely an illusion. We are all acting on 2 general sets of programming:
1- Hard wired genetic/hereditary programming,
2- “Software” programming from family, social and cultural sources.
What little true free will we experience is the tiny piece that remains independent of #1 and #2.
Just my opinion, never studied the subject deeply.
It sounds very easy, so why do most people continuing to suffer? I ask Tolle if suffering is necessary as a path to insight, as happened to him? “You need to suffer until you see that you don’t need to suffer. That appears to be a paradox. Suffering was necessary for most people who have gone through a deep inner transformation. There are exceptions. But nowadays not everyone has to go through the ‘dark night of the soul’. Many have already suffered enough. Humanity has already suffered so much that you could almost say that all the necessary human suffering is behind us. It’s already taken place. It is therefore now possible for many individuals to make the transition. When you understand that you’re suffering as a result of collective conditioning, then you’ve already got one foot out the door.
In some cases, people will use their free will to do things that are wrong and in some cases they can be tricked or pressured into doing things that are wrong. In the case of Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China, etc. you have the approximate 1/3rd criminal types running the show, who are able to trick or intimidate another 1/3rd or so of the population into cooperating with their schemes because they believe they are going to benefit in some way. The other 1/3rd who are the skeptics or "non-believeing" types end up having to go along out of self-preservation or because they mostly have no other choice. A small percentage of the latter may be brave enough to revolt against the powers that be.
In the United States, we are fortunate, because we had extremely intelligent men of high moral character that set up our system of government. Abuses have been kept in check because the politicians have to ultimately answer to the people. The problem comes when either the politicians/government manages to claim too much power for itself and/or the people have lost their moral character. Then things start to degenerate into some of the kinds of things we are seeing now.
Yep. That about nails it.
And rude people are just pricks!
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