Posted on 09/21/2007 3:12:46 PM PDT by WFTR
This week is National Unmarried and Single Americans Week or National USA Week as the sponsors like to say. The official website for this week is at
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/usaweek/intro.htm .
This "celebration" started on Monday and will run through the weekend. The celebration is being promoted by a group called "Unmarried America" that calls itself "an information source for the new unmarried majority." This group is trying to capture and represent the interests of all unmarried people and wants to reach out to those beyond traditional "singles" to include widows and widowers, homosexuals, couples living together without marrying, single parents, and about anyone else who isn't married. If you follow the link posted above, you can read a little more about this group.
My first question to our group is, "Do you like the idea of a day or a week set aside to celebrate the contributions of unmarried people to society?" Beyond this question, a few others come to mind. Here they are.
Do you like the idea of setting aside days, weeks, or months to celebrate certain demographic groups or are these celebrations generally a bad idea?
Do you think being unmarried is a good thing to celebrate in this way?
Do you think that this group can effectively represent your views? As part of this question, do you think that all unmarried people have more in common with one another than they do with married people? For instance, does the unmarried couple raising children together have more in common with a traditional family or with a single person living alone?
Speaking of being single
While we're thinking about being single and maybe finding a way not to be single, I wanted to focus on a couple of points from an article that appeared earlier in the month. I’m sure that some of us saw this article and may have discussed it on other threads. I never had a chance to catch the threads, but I want to ask a couple of specific questions.
The article is sarcastically called "Earth-Shattering Study: Men Like Good-Looking Women" and can be found at
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295649,00.html?sPage=fnc.science/humanbody .
My own short explanation of the study is that they used a speed-dating event to study men's and women's choices. They found that in spite of what people claimed to want in the opposite sex, each sex made certain choices. Men chose the best-looking women. Women were aware of how their appearance compared with that of other women and chose the best men that they thought they could attract. The article didn't say how the researchers measured the "most attractive" women or the "best" men.
A crude but maybe accurate interpretation of what they are saying is that we all fall into a kind of relationship caste system. In sports terminology that Americans use more often to describe relationships, we're each in a "league," and we have little chance of dating or marrying someone "outside our league." If we just don't have the right stuff to marry someone in the major league, then we have to learn to accept someone in the minor league.
Do you believe that this idea accurately reflects the way relationships work? In general, are we in a kind of relationship caste system where the best and most beautiful date and marry one another while the rest of us are relegated to finding a lesser partner of our own lesser ranks or is it just as likely for someone who isn't one of the best or most beautiful to build a great relationship with someone is one of the best or most beautiful? I know that we can often find one exception to any rule, but I'm looking for people's opinions of whether the rule is real or just a dating urban legend.
The second issue that came to mind as I read this study is how valid the whole speed-dating scenario is. Some people claim that everything in life is about making a first impression. Recently, I saw an article that claimed that the first impression determines whether someone interviewing for a job will get the job. Of course, many of the people making these claims are people who are trying to sell a system for making a first impression, so they have a vested interest in making us believe that first impressions are most important.
When it comes to dating, how much do you rely on first impressions? If you meet someone in a setting where you are likely to see that person again, do you make an evaluation that is likely to be permanent or do you wait to see how this person's character and traits will unfold over time? Does your impression of someone's attractiveness tend to change over time or are your first impressions usually accurate? Do you think this says more about you or about the people you've met?
Speaking of looks
A final question came from something that Dances with Cats asked a month or so ago. I may get the details of the question wrong, but I think I've captured the basics. The question for each of us is "Do you have a vision of for the physical appearance of the person who is right for you." This vision may not be the appearance that you find most attractive as an ideal but is a physical description of how you think Mr. or Mrs. Right will look when you find that person. If so, how do you describe this person? Is he/she tall, short, medium? What color hair does he/she have? What general body build does this person have? What other details can you give?
The trips I have done have only been day trips but I would like to the Nile or even a Cruise round the med.
We also have paddle steamer in the UK an old one and a few years ago I went on day trip on her from Folkestone down the Thames to Tower Bridge, they lowered Tower Bridge and then back to Folkestone.
http://www.waverleyexcursions.co.uk/
The Thingmaker was the device that used the Plastigoop! It was essentially a little electric skillet just big enough to hold the molds that came with it. You poured the Plastigoop into the molds and baked it until it hardened. The final consistency was rather rubbery (unless of course you burned it.) I had one of the first versions of this toy and the molds were for bugs, worms, spiders, etc., thus the name Thingmaker.
Later versions came out with flowers, GI Joes & accessories, etc. The Plastigoop colors went from 4 basic colors to a huge variety - pastels, glow-in-the-dark, etc. I think there were glittery colors, but won’t swear to that.
My brother had the GI Joe set and you put wires in the liquid plastic before cooking so that the end product could be posed.
I know my sibs & I had other sets besides the 3 I named, but these are the ones I remember.
Oh yeah, the name of the first set was Creepy Crawlers.
Just Googled it. Wow! The choices they have today!
http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/thing.html
http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/goop.html
Brings back memories. The Creeple Peeple were really cool!
2. I talk to old high school friends every couple years. We really don't have much in common and have drifted apart. I think it's mostly because we were all so busy with careers and raising families.....plus there was a distance factor.
My very best childhood friend got mixed up with the drug crowd after I married and moved away. She's still living that life..... and after trying to help her numerous times....I had to back away. It's been about 7 years now since I've heard of her or from her. Sad...
3. You could offer me a billion dollars and I wouldn't attempt to climb Mt. Everest. I have trouble going to the top of a skyscraper....since I have a fear of heights. :)
Somehow, this doesn't surprise me at all. Seeing some of the beautiful foods you've prepared, I can believe that you would enjoy such a toy. Whoever gave you that one certainly had great foresight.
The Samaria Gorge is beautiful. I envy you getting to see that one. In some ways, those pictures remind me of Zion National Park, but Zion's big hikes are very strenuous.
Bill
The Chocolate Hills are interesting. Thanks for the link.
I’m sure that you would love a trip on some of the steamers on the Mississippi. They leave from near New Orleans and stop at plantations along the river.
I may have to look into this stuff. If I could find a way to build my own molds, I could make some useful little items for my animal cages and for other uses around the house.
Bill
Bill
Bill
The Samaria Gorge is lovely you have to start early in the morning because by the time you get about 3/4 of the way down it is getting very hot.
When you get down the bottom you then get a boat trip back to your coach as the bottom of the gorge is only accessable by boat.
I hope one day to go to Samaria again.
That's what usually happens with me. Seems we all get busy again.....and time marches on. I've had so much going on in the past 10 years..... I'm surprised I keep up with any close relatives.... lol
I have a couple of awkward questions, but they relate to the point that you raised. If you don't feel like answering them, feel free to say so. Do you think that your feelings for a woman "in your league" would be as strong as the feelings that you'd have for a woman who was "out of your league" if you could attract one of these women? If you found a woman "in your league" and she asked you whether you honestly found her as desirable as you would find one of these "out of your league" women, what would you say and what would the honest answer really be?
Thanks,
Bill
I know that feeling.
This exchange has been both encouraging and discouraging at the same time. One thing on the plus side is that it’s nice to see the candor. It’s nice to see people willing to honestly share their opinions.
It’s encouraging to see that a guy finds himself attracted to women “in his league” which is nice to hear for all the women who are not beauty queens.
It’s discouraging to realize that looks seem to override all other factors for a guy to find a woman attractive. It’s also discouraging to hear you say that someone is “out of your league.” I think that beautiful women often feel that their beauty puts them out of reach and they actually don’t get approached as much as more average looking women.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I rarely regard a man as “out of my league,” in terms of being “too good for me.” I do regard myself as being “too good” for a lot of men. This is not at all based on looks, but based on the fact that I am nice, intelligent, and accomplished. Being “not nice” is the number one turnoff for me in a man and if he is not nice then I am too good for him. I put honesty high in the list of factors that are a part of being nice.
I get “hit on” a lot by the mentally challenged. I think this is because I am nice to them, which a lot of people aren’t. For example, the guy at the grocery store who collects the shopping carts - Instead of acting as though he does not exist, I talk to him. I wish more people would. But there is no way that I would ever have a relationship with him. I guess in spite of his being nice, I would say I am out of his league. It makes me feel mean to say that! I do need some intellectual compatibility.
When I was in my 20’s, I think I would have considered exceptionally well-connected guys from rich families who were very smooth and socially adept to be out of my league. I don’t know if I would find that intimidating any more, partly because I am more socially adept and I have more self-confidence at this point in my life. I might be intimidated by a movie star or celebrity, but I’m not sure. A lot would depend on the circumstances in which I met him.
One more thing I’d say to the guys who are focused on looks (all of you?) is that a lot of average looking women can look pretty spectacular if they are dressed up, wearing makeup, and have their hair done. If you meet them at the hardware store wearing sweat pants with paint in their hair, they aren’t at their best! Some of the women that you think are very good looking have spent hours (and a lot of money) getting that way. How good do you think they will look after they’ve spent an hour helping you weed your garden, change your oil, paint your house? Some babes are down to earth, but some would not even stoop to those activities and you might quickly tire of a relationship where it took the woman 2 hours to get ready to leave the house and she would never participate in any activity that might mess up her hair. High maintenance can grow old real fast.
So, one point I’d make is that some women dress to kill just to go to a ballgame or McDonald’s. Others (myself included) only dress up if it seems warranted - a fancy restaurant, the office Christmas party, starring in a movie, .... We’ll probably dress up for you to meet your family or friends if you ask us, or if you have some other reason that it’s important.
http://arcadevoid.com/games/files/Celebrities_without_Makeup.jpg
*chuckle* I agree with your concept.......to a point. I spend extra time on my looks......and always have. Just habit I guess.
For one....I would never go to the store without my hair combed and at least some mascara and lipstick on. I also don't go anywhere in public without having on clean, neat clothing. I was raised in a median to low-income family that placed great value on manners, good grooming and education.
My little German grandmother pound into us kids...."you may be poor.....but you can always afford soap and water". She would come over every week to help my (working) mother clean house, wash, line dry...then press our clothing. It made a huge impression on me.
I wince when I see young women who walk around slobbed out with nasty, soiled clothes on, scraggly hair and dragging 3 bed-raggled kids behind them that still have yesterday's lunch on their faces. It may take her an hour to get herself and the kids ready to go out.....but believe me when I say her spouse and the rest of America would have appreciated it. :)
First, anyone who collects enough paparazzi pictures of celebrities can find an occasional shot of an attractive woman looking unattractive. That collage of photographs is contrived to try to produce an effect. I don't believe that effect is real. I've seen women of all levels of attractiveness on a daily basis at work or school throughout my career. I've seen that even the best of them can have a bad day and even the worst of them can have a good day. I've seen them as they come inside after having worked for a couple of hours in 90 degree heat. I've seen them after pulling an all-nighter and spending two hours in a boring lab class. If they are caught at the wrong moment in a picture, the prettiest of them can look horrible, but overall, the attractive women are still attractive.
I've never met a professional or world-renowned beauty. I don't know whether those women would really seem more attractive in real life than many of the women that I see in the stores in my own home town. I tend to doubt that I would notice many of them if they passed me on the street any more than I would notice the other attractive women passing me on the street. However, knowing that Brooke Burke isn't really any prettier in real life than many other women I see on the street is little consolation if all of them are still "out of my league" by several levels.
I also don't put much emphasis on whether a woman is "dressed up." I remember helping at a refinery in Bakersfield during a turnaround and seeing a young lady who was the safety watch outside several pieces of equipment that I needed to enter. She was wearing loose, flame-retardant coveralls. She had an air horn in one pocket and a radio in another pocket. She was wearing steel-toed boots and a hard hat. Wearing all of this stuff and standing in the sun all day did not allow her to wear much makeup. She still looked great. If I stood at a corner on a college campus and watched people walk past me all day, I probably wouldn't pick her out as being exceptional, but she looked just fine even under less than optimal conditions.
I'm not saying that looks are everything, the only thing, or even the most important thing. However, you mentioned that looks equals power for women, and I think there is a great deal of truth to what you've said.
Part of why I opened this discussion is that I struggle with the idea of someone being not in someone else's "league." I don't really believe in this relationship caste system, but I admit that maybe I just don't want to believe this system exists. Maybe I'm just worried that I'm in such a low caste that I'll never find someone that I'll like. I ask these questions because I want to better understand the whole idea.
I met a woman about four years ago who is an example. She works with her brother and parents in a family business. She lived one or two different places as child, but has lived in the same town for her entire adult life. She worked somewhere else for a few years after high school and may have taken a few college classes. Except for maybe one or two trips to the beach, she's lived her entire adult life within a hundred or two hundred mile radius. I've worked for a few major corporations. I have three engineering degrees from two major and one mid-sized university. I've lived in seven states as an adult and traveled to about forty states. I worried that the difference in our life experiences would be too much to bridge, but I really didn't see myself as being out of her league. She wasn't beautiful by any means, but she had a pleasant appearance. I don't think most people would say that her appearance would bridge any gap, but she seemed to be a nice, gentle, reasonable person. I felt that those qualities would bridge any gap. I never had a chance to explore this idea because she never gave me a second date. We had very different experiences in life, but I didn't see us as being in different leagues.
I don't think it's arrogant for you to consider yourself "too good" for many men. Many men are trash, and they don't deserve a relationship with any woman. Furthermore, I don't see men who are trash and women who are trash as being "in the same league." I don't think either group deserves a league. When trashy men and trashy women get together, they still cause problems and hurt themselves and others in a way that damages our society.
Bill
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