Looking for advice on a gun for self defense in the case of roaming gangs of looters.

personal notes | Sep 2, 2005 | putupjob

[putupjob]

I see from New Orleans that when the social order breaks down, we are responsible for our own defense. I am planning on getting a firearm with the correct training that will be stashed away in a crawl space, never to be used unless a dire situation arises. The scum looters can come for me, that's fine, but I am going out in a blaze of glory.

I am seeking advice on what I should get. A handgun, a rifle? I'm sure there are big time gunners on freep and I could use some solid advice. Thanks.

[M1911A1]

I agree with the majority that a shotgun is probably the choice for self defense in a "homeowner vs. looter" situation. I'd part from the majority by saying that a 20 gage is probably a better choice for novice shooters or use by smaller framed men or women. Still plenty of wallop, but not as much recoil.

If you want a handgun, too, my screen name reveals my favorite, but for a novice, I do like a double action revolver, probably an L-frame S&W .357 loaded with .38 +P 158 grain lead hollow points. A four inch barrel for a house gun.

If you get in to the whole firearms scene and develop your own preferences for stuff like concealed carry, feel free to ignore any and all advice and just go with a weapon of reasonable power that you like.

Practice, practice, practice.

[bluetone006]

I lost my house in Andrew and we didn't have any civil authority for 6 bloody weeks. Our neighborhood formed our own vigilante group. Scary huh. For home defense I also recommend a shotgun, probably a 20 gauge. I have seen shotguns used under stress and I do not recommend the use of a pump gun unless you are extremely proficient. Get a semi-auto. The Saiga shotguns out of Russia, if properly set up are cheap, have a large ammo capacity, and are reliable. Use #4 shot. For concealed carry I would recommend 9mm or .40 unless you are wearing very light clothing. For that I will carry a .380 but I can hit what I aim at. Glock, Sig Sauer, HK are great choices - but I haven't been keeping up with what is new the last few years. Get trained and then train regularly. Obey the laws. Only use deadly force as a last resort. Don't be a victim. Cheers

[gondramB]

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3170179

http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/04/77/00/26/0004770026941_215X215.jpg

[SauronOfMordor]

You don't have to aim it, just point and anything in front of you will die.

You don't spend much time on the range, do you? It's easy to miss with a shotgun, particularly if the target is more than a few feet away.

USE the sights and AIM. Get a ghost-ring rear sight

[DoughtyOne]

I used to believe the shotgun was a good idea. Then the 1992 LA Riots came along. For three to five days folks were pretty much on their own. Businesses were being torched over a wide area. Finally the Korean business men went on the roof of their businesses with rifles and it stopped.

If you don't have access to a long range rifle, it leaves you open to some sucker that has looted an arms store, and wants what you have, or to destroy what you have. Can't take a shotgun to that type of a fight.

If someone is trying to torch your neighborhood, it's a good idea to be able to address the issue without having to go down the street to stop them, or watch everthing burn up to your doorsteop.

[Sender]

For seriously Repelling All Boarders, you can't beat a 12-gauge shotgun. Remington, Mossberg, Winchester pump or auto. Every creature with two legs or four respects a 12-gauge. It's safer too, as the pellets won't go far.

[gc4nra]

More importantly, you have to know how to correctly pump it


Personally I prefer a pump but, if you don't plan to practice you might be better off with a Remington 11-87 or if you can afford it a Benelli tactical 12 ga.

[flashbunny]

" For home self defense, nothing beats a folding stock, short barreled shotgun.

You don't have to aim it, just point and anything in front of you will die. "

How many gun myths can you count in the above two sentences?

1. Nothing beats a shotgun
(Yes, the ar15 platform does, for shear number of rounds, reduced risk of overpenetration, range if needed, etc- 30 rounds of 5.56 with a fast followup, and the general "dumb people think it's a machiine gun" factor)
2. Foding stock shotgun
(disliked by many because of discomfort with actual use)
3. You don't have to aim it, just point and anything in front of you will die
(giving advice like that will get somebody killed - likely the person being told they didn't have to aim to take on their target. Any gun must be aimed - a shotgun doesn't pattern based on magic, there are many factors involved.)

[AnAmericanMother]

The idea that a shotgun is a "death ray" that wipes out everything in front of it will be disabused by a couple hours on the skeet range (or upland hunting).

You still have to practice. Anybody who does skeet, trap, or bird hunting will tell you that you don't aim it, you point it . . . but you still have to practice pointing.

Any goblins that bother you are probably going to be closer than a skeet or trap clay and a good deal larger . . . but you can't just point the shotgun in their general direction and hope for the best. Practice, practice, practice! I concur that the Remington 870 is your best choice . . . and if you ever get into bird hunting (or hunt tests) you have got yourself the perfect all purpose bird gun too. 12 ga has a pretty hefty kick so you need to be ready for that, if that worries you, get a 20 ga. or a 16 ga. if you can find it. My dad shot a burglar with a 16 ga. double (with bird shot) and the guy never came back . . .

I would also recommend a reliable sidearm for when you can't get at your shotgun. Since you are starting out, stay away from the autoloaders for a first gun. I would recommend a good .357 revolver with a short but not stubby barrel (stubbies lose too much velocity and are hard to aim, plus they kick worse.) The great thing about the revolver is it is the original point and click . . . no slide or jams or magazine to worry about. You'll only get six (or five) shots, but you can buy a couple of speedloaders and (again) practice, practice, practice. The great thing about .357 is it holds .38 Specials too, so you can practice, practice, practice with the cheaper (and low recoil) .38s until you are confident.

If you really get into shooting is time enough to think about getting a semi-auto . . . I swear by my 1911A1 and .45 ACP is a better caliber than .357, but you don't want to fool with all the extra stuff to learn on your first handgun.

Just my

[M1911A1]

Too true. Hollywood shotguns cover a whole wall with holes at a few feet. Real shotguns need to be aimed, or at least pointed with precision. A ghost ring sight is a help.

[Mulder]

First, most self-defense situations won't give you a "heads up" like a hurricane. So a firearm won't do you any good unless you can reach it quickly and easily. Since carrying a rifle around isn't practical unless you live in a very rural area, the best way to have a firearm easily accessable is to carry a handgun on your person.

Most states "allow" you to carry a handgun concealed so long as you have a carry permit. So you should look into getting one if you live in one the 40 or so states that offer it.

The next step is to decide between a revolver and pistol. Some folks say a revolver is easier to learn, but I learned on a pistol first, so I do not agree. A pistol has an advantage of allowing you to carry more ammo and reload much faster than a revolver. So I would choose a pistol.

Go with a quality manufacturer. These include: Glock, Sig, H&K, and Beretta. All of those guns will perform about the same from a reliability standpoint. Go to a gun range and shoot each, then buy the one that works best for you. As for caliber, I recommend 9mm, with the caveat that you carry hollowpoints for self-defense. Others will recommend .40 and .45, so please shoot these calibers as well. Again, pick whichever works the best for you (in other words, which one can you most quickly and accurately put multiple rounds on multiple targets).

You'll want plenty of spare mags and good holster (I recommend Milt Sparks).

Pistols are good, but their stopping power (regardless of caliber) is marginal. The purpose of a handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle which you shouldn't have left behind in the first place.

The best rifle for the situation you described (dealing with looters) is an accessorized AR-15, IMHO. I would recommend the following: collapsible stock, tactical rail, Surefire light, and Aimpoint or EOTech optic. Spend some time over at ar15.com to get a good idea of what accessories you'll want to get. You will want a lot of ammo and magazines as well.

Should disorder persist for more than a few days, you will want a .308 battle rifle so you can engage at longer distances and penetrate stuff.

Whatever you decide to buy, get lots of training.

Also, I would recommend the following books:

"Principles of Personal Defense" by Jeff Cooper
"Boston's Gun Bible" by Boston T. Party
"Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse" by John Rawles.

[Americanwolf]

lol! I like the way you think! :)

[ozarkgirl]

Have to agree with many here, don't keep your gun in a crawlspace whatever you choose.

My bro is a cop, he selected a .38 Taurus revolver for me. For someone who is not a lot used to guns (I am pretty well but not sure how I'd react in a bad situation), Semi auto's tend to jam and you have to be well acquainted to be able to unjamb quickly it in a bad situation. Not a good choice.

Shotguns I guess are good but are more expensive and if you go on a trip or have to bug out, they're considerably larger and more difficult to take with you.

I gotta go with what I have, the .38 revolver, in a nightstand by your bed. And then train, train, train. You can also train with a revolver at a range whereas you may not be able to with a shotgun.

If you have kids, it does lock but fishing for the key in a tight situation is time lost and perhaps you or family dead. Best to train them to shoot and how dangerous guns are. If they shoot a .38 a couple times, I think they will be scared off of wanting to use it. It's not got a horrible kickback but is certainly powerful.

PS. You're gonna have a ton of responses. .38 Taurus revolver, small enough to carry, powerful enough to hurt and won't jamb like a semi-auto. Remember, train, train, train otherwise you are a detriment to yourself and family because you would be uneducated and too scared to be confident of what is going to happen.

[msf92497]

Don't forget the fighting knife and the "boot knife".

[always vigilant]

You are very kind. If you do, ever get a firearm, no matter what it is, the key is to buy lots and lots of ammo and practice, practice and practice.

Keep it in the ten ring :)

[M1911A1]

Your bro is wise, Taurus is a good reliable gun at a reasonable price.

Semi-autos are not really all that jam-prone, if they are fed, maintained and used properly, but revolvers are simple and in a high stress environment, simple is good.

[bluetone006]

"I used to believe the shotgun was a good idea. Then the 1992 LA Riots came along. For three to five days folks were pretty much on their own. Businesses were being torched over a wide area. Finally the Korean business men went on the roof of their businesses with rifles and it stopped. If you don't have access to a long range rifle, it leaves you open to some sucker that has looted an arms store, and wants what you have, or to destroy what you have. Can't take a shotgun to that type of a fight."

Very good point - Add a rifle to the shotgun and handgun mix. Keep plenty of ammo at hand. Don't live in LA

:-)

[stevem]

I won't give you advice as to what model to buy. My preference would be a hand gun for ease of operation, and it is slick for up close and personal use. Firearm school will teach you how to use one for personal protection.

My son is in the military. We gave him a gift a couple of years ago of a nine millimeter automatic of the same brand as he has to qualify with for his job. The beauty of it is store bought ammunition isn't overly expensive.

I also recommend you don't buy it just to hide for personal protection. If you haven't ever used firearms before I can tell you shooting can be a fantastic and fun hobby.

I own a Ruger single action that shoots .45 caliber long colts. Now these are very expensive per round when store bought. I make my own ammunition so I can shoot all day for less than $10.00.

I used to shoot trap with a double barrel 12 guage shot gun but had to quit when I lost depth perception. Still, that can be fun but more expensive. Also the gun is large, heavy and unwieldy (IMHO) if you ever want to use it for personal protection. I feel the same is true with a rifle.

The thing of it is, is shooting (simple target shooting that I do these days) is truly excellent fun. It can give you a tremendous amount of satisfaction and confidence. I also believe you can meet some really nice people at the ranges.

My point is, a firearm can be superb for personal protection. Yet if that is your only reason for having one, you may be missing out on an excellent adult toy, provided you play while giving it the respect it deserves. I also suspect after you buy one and learn to use it, you will find advantages and disadvantages as they apply specifically to you. I bet before you get too far into it you will want more than one type and may start a collection.

[BurbankKarl]

I was fresh out of college and anti gun coming out of college when I returned to Los Angeles, in time for the Rodney King beating, and riots a year later.

After the riots, I went to the famous B&B Guns in North Hollywood (where the LAPD officers went during the North Hollywood Shootout for weapons) and at first bought a Glock .40. Subsequently, I bought a Mossberg 590 shotgun, and some other handguns.

During the Northridge Earthquake, boarding up our family business, two carloads of low riders pulled up looking for no good. It was pre dawn, there was no police presence other units running Code 3 in random directions. My father called to me and I came out of the front of the building with my Mossberg 590 (and a SigSauer on my hip). I racked a shell, and the homies eyes got wide and they bugged out, bottoming out on the street as they sped away.

Within one hour of the Earthquake, upscale areas like Sherman Oaks were being pilfered by white people...my dad couldnt believe it...people taking office furniture from a furniture store, we saw people looting a donut shop, and cars upside down in the intersection (because there is no power, and no traffic signals during widespread outages -- people were flying home not realizing the signals were out, hitting other people at freeway speeds)

I often wonder if I would have shot someone if they produced a weapon from one of those cars....and also wonder what I would have done if I had never armed myself.