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Expelled-- No Science Contained (Vanity)
Soliiton via cited sources | 4/20/2008 | Soliton

Posted on 04/20/2008 8:49:48 AM PDT by Soliton

“Intelligent Design” is of no scientific value in determining the origins of life in the universe. A designer would have to be supernatural (i.e. not subject to the laws of physics) or natural and subject to those laws. If the designer is natural in origin, then it would have to have been designed by another designer –again supernatural or natural. Ultimately come to an original designer that either evolved from a lower state of matter, or was created by a supernatural being. You will note that this is back to where we started. Science does not deal with supernatural phenomena by definition. Scientifically, the only answer is evolution. ID, however, is really about the cosmology of the Book of Genesis anyway, but if that is admitted, it can’t be taught in school. And there’s the rub.

The term “Intelligent Design” was adopted by the Discovery Institute, the originator of the ID movement, and a non-profit company that was incorporated specifically to get the story of Genesis taught in public schools (as specifically stated in the incorporation documents). To that end a Creationist textbook was published called Of Pandas and People.

In 1987, The Supreme Court of the United States ruled that teaching creationism in public schools violated the separation of church and state in Edwards vs. Aquilard.

In a similar later case, Kitzmiller vs. The Dover Area School District involving the school’s acquisition of Of Pandas and People, it was proven in court that the publishers and the people who financed the purchase lied in depositions when they stated that Intelligent Design wasn’t just another term for Creationism. They did this by showing that dozens of passages in the pre-1987 Edwards vs. Aquilard copies of the book used “Creation”, while later versions substituted “Intelligent Design” in its place.

The entire Intelligent Design movement is a dishonest, legalistic Trojan horse specifically intended to teach creationism in public school even though it is against the law.

Complete transcripts of Kitzmiller vs. Dover can be found here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/kitzmiller_v_dover.html


TOPICS: Religion; Science; Society; UFO's
KEYWORDS: evolutio; expelled; id; intelligentdesign; stein
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To: aft_lizard

So are you happy with 1930’s era tech?


41 posted on 04/20/2008 9:56:15 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: aft_lizard
True, but creation was more widely taught in schools, and was taught until the 1960’s and our technology never suffered. I am not arguing for ID or creationism, just that stupid point that we would fall into the dark ages of technology advancement if we somehow made a blurb or two about ID, which I am not in favor of, at least not in science class.

You're right. Except for a few fields, it doesn't really matter much what you believe about evolution or creation. A creationist could design an airplane, write a computer program or study the atmosphere just as well as an evolutionist. The academic success of Christian schools provides ample proof of that.

42 posted on 04/20/2008 9:59:18 AM PDT by elmer fudd (Fukoku kyohei)
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To: tokenatheist

If I was in the 1930’s, yeah I would be. But your new argument is running off the assumption that technology would have stalled after 1930 if creationism stayed and that prior to 1930 there was no advancement, both laughable assertions.


43 posted on 04/20/2008 10:01:25 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: MindBender26

Wow. I misspeled a word so that invaldts my hole postg.
Looks lik evoltin didnt help you one bite.


44 posted on 04/20/2008 10:02:48 AM PDT by svcw (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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To: aft_lizard

creationism wasn’t used as a method to gut science. ID on the other hand does gut science.

One can not explore / question the universe when the answer to every question is ‘%deity% did it so don’t question it’.

It doesn’t help that the set of people who support ID overlaps quite a bit with the set of people who think vaccines are evil and the set of people who think the world is 6,000 years old.


45 posted on 04/20/2008 10:03:59 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: Soliton
I'm not the really religious type but I do find it odd that a country that bills itself as the greatest country in the world would create a "law" that made it illegal to teach about God in it's schools. EVERYTHING ELSE is okay. I wonder what people are afraid of. "Global warming" is the biggest religious scam to ever come down the pike but that's all schools are teaching these days when their not busy performing "sex ed" on the kids.

Just my 2 cents.

46 posted on 04/20/2008 10:04:15 AM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Help make the world "a better place!" De-Globalize yourself.)
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To: tokenatheist
Ok, you got me. I do not see the connection between a strong military and ID.
47 posted on 04/20/2008 10:04:54 AM PDT by svcw (I reject your reality and substitute my own.)
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To: IrishCatholic
Science isn't advanced enough to exclude I.D. It is advanced to examine the potential evidence of it.

"Potential" is correct, since there isn't any actual evidence, nor has any "potential" evidence been offered by the ID promoters.

ID is an idea. A philosophy. An alternative without any evidence for science to examine.

In the event ID promoters offer something other than the promise of "potential" evidence, I'm sure science will thoroughly examine it.

48 posted on 04/20/2008 10:06:34 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: tokenatheist

I don’t mind them teaching ID nonsense in public schools. Most students are going to come out dumb-as-a-stump, heads full of mush, and uneducated anyway. The few students interested in science will be informed or inform themselves regardless.


49 posted on 04/20/2008 10:06:37 AM PDT by Hiddigeigei (Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder. [Arnold Toynbee])
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To: tokenatheist

NOT an attack, merely a statement of fact Tokenatheist.


50 posted on 04/20/2008 10:08:42 AM PDT by True Republican Patriot (God Bless America and The Republicans)
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To: tokenatheist

You are making an assumption based off of fear and prejudice. There is no evidence that what you say will inhibit technological progress.


51 posted on 04/20/2008 10:10:28 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: svcw

Those advanced weapons systems are not designed and built by those who are content to stop at %deity% did it for a reason.

Do you think we would have won WW2 if our weapons designers simply wrote off nuclear research as ‘to domain of %deity’ and something that we would never be able to understand?

That is what ID teaches when it is taught as science.


52 posted on 04/20/2008 10:12:35 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: tokenatheist
One can not explore / question the universe when the answer to every question is ‘%deity% did it so don’t question it’.

Therefore one must not be allowed to question evolutionists.

Atheist doublethink.

53 posted on 04/20/2008 10:13:16 AM PDT by Mojave
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To: aft_lizard

ID doesn’t have an evidence to support it either so can I expect your denouement of it soon?


54 posted on 04/20/2008 10:13:46 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: aft_lizard; svcw
The interesting thing about world travel as an American is that I have no problems anywhere. People usually like individual Americans.

But when Creationism and its disguises comes up, the conversation usually turns to (only half in jest) “How can you complain about the Taliban when you let your schools and children's minds be hijacked by the Creationist fools and scammers.”

55 posted on 04/20/2008 10:13:57 AM PDT by MindBender26 (Leftists stop arguing when they see your patriotism, your logic, your CAR-15 and your block of C4.)
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To: Mojave

Question all you want. Just do it in a scientific way.

Why is that so hard for people to understand. If ID wants to be treated as science they have to play by the same rules as every other scientific discipline. They don’t get to make up special rules simply because they think they are special.


56 posted on 04/20/2008 10:15:12 AM PDT by tokenatheist (Can I play with madness?)
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To: tokenatheist

No, because I havent come out in support of ID. Of course if you had bothered to read my previous posts you would have known that.


57 posted on 04/20/2008 10:15:16 AM PDT by aft_lizard (born conservative...I chose to be a republican)
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To: True Republican Patriot
NOT an attack, merely a statement of fact Tokenatheist.

There was no statement of fact. It was purely a personal sentiment, hoping someone else's soul would be damned for eternity.

58 posted on 04/20/2008 10:15:55 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: tokenatheist
creationism wasn’t used as a method to gut science. ID on the other hand does gut science.
One can not explore / question the universe when the answer to every question is ‘%deity% did it so don’t question it’.
It doesn’t help that the set of people who support ID overlaps quite a bit with the set of people who think vaccines are evil and the set of people who think the world is 6,000 years old.

Well, I can see that you have the talking points memorized but your parody of ID hasn't advanced the discussion.
Or perhaps you don't really understand ID.
Or perhaps you don't understand the metaphysical foundations of your viewpoint.

59 posted on 04/20/2008 10:17:00 AM PDT by Politically Correct (A member of the rabble in good standing)
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To: Soliton
“Intelligent Design” is of no scientific value in determining the origins of life in the universe.

ID is a realization (based in part on mathematical reasoning) that neo-Darwinian model of evolution is inadequate model for explaining the observed phenomena of life and its evolution. That is certainly a much healthier attitude toward science than pretending to know what is not known and silencing the doubters using censorship, courts and police.

A designer would have to be supernatural (i.e. not subject to the laws of physics) or natural and subject to those laws.

That's a straw-man. ID doesn't postulate anything about lawfulness of the "designer". It simply says that the observed complexity of life requires far greater level of intelligence and foresight, or far more powerful algorithm than the algorithm of "random mutation" and "natural selection" of the neo-Darwinian dogma. The nature of that additional intelligence/algorithm is an open question that needs to be scientifically investigated.

As to the "laws of physics" as presently understood, that, too need not be held as the final word on the subject. Many among the greatest physicists of 20th century, including Planck, Einstein, Dirac, Schrodinger, de Broglie,... had realized that our present modeling foundation in physics, the quantum fields, are merely an approximate (linearized) computational algorithm for some unknown underlying reality.

If the designer is natural in origin, then it would have to have been designed by another designer –again supernatural or natural.

Not correct. It is perfectly conceivable within ID that some more fundamental physical laws provide mechanisms sufficient to explain composition of computationally more powerful systems from the less powerful ones. Cellular automata, such as Conway's Game of Life, demonstrate that such schemes are at least mathematically possible. Steven Wolfram as well as the scientists associated with the Santa Fe Institute on Complex Systems believe that the vastly greater intelligence responsible for origin of life and evolution may be of this perfectly lawful kind (albeit with laws still largely unknown).

In a similar later case, Kitzmiller vs. The Dover Area School District involving ...

When a "scientific theory" starts using courts and the brute force of State to silence doubters, it's a sure sign that its days are numbered and that its defenders know it.

60 posted on 04/20/2008 10:17:09 AM PDT by nightlight7
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