Posted on 04/07/2008 1:28:28 PM PDT by CottShop
Why would a loving God allow evil? Probably one of the biggest issues regarding people’s objection to God, is the underlying feeling that God, ‘if He were God’, would not allow evil to affect so many people. Indeed, there is a great amount of terrible suffering in this world, and people naturally struggle with this important issue.
Some of the accusations leveled toward God that I see quite commonly go along the lines of “God must not be perfect (or omnipotent) if He wasn’t big enough to prevent evil from affecting us”, and usually people will extend this accusation to include something like “Why couldn’t God just have made a world that perhaps allowed sin, but made it so everyone would willingly choose not to indulge in the evil?”
At the root of all such accusations lies the real issue: “Even though we chose not to follow God’s good, I don’t like the fact that I now have to pay for our choice to disobey God, and I don’t like the fact that other people suffer either.”
I’ve seen a great many discussions that go through all manner of rabbit trail diversions, trying to explain away our capability and our deserved come-uppances, but they are all, as I said, just a diversionary attempt to avoid stating the true objections toward God: That Evil exists, we brought it on ourselves, and now we don’t like the results, and God should do something to bail us out immediately.
At this point, I’d like to be blunt, and this might come across as harsh and insensitive, but it is the absolute truth of the matter: We have no right to even exist and be offered an eternity with God our creator. We are the creation, and God has offered us a wonderful eternity if we will simply accept, but it was out of Grace that God even chose to give us this opportunity.
I don’t mean to brush aside the evil by suggesting a hand waving explanation of “Well, it’s just how God decided to do things, and that is that”, but as Glen says in the link that follows, God is being incredibly restrained in His perfect sovereign right to judge us as we ought to be judged. God has allowed evil to exist, as some of you might know, so that grace can abound all the more. Without evil, there would be no free will, and without free will, there would be no occasion for true love to exist. A love that demands that we not suffer, that demands that God act according to our limited understanding of issues far greater than we can possibly comprehend, is a selfish, shallow, “God must obey me before I’ll give my heart to Him” attitude.
This attitude coincidently, is precisely the attitude that Satan exploits, and feeds and causes to fester within us. It is an attitude that Satan Himself had when He decided He wanted God to Obey Him and make Him an equal to God. Our attitude about the situation of Evil is no different than Satan’s was 1000’s of years ago, only our attitudes are formed using different languages and accusations, but at it’s root, our attitude is the very same.
You might be thinking at this point “Oh come on. I would never expect God to obey me, I just think it’s unfair that He allows ‘innocent people’ (especially babies and young children who (haven’t yet had the chance to sin) to suffer horrible diseases or crimes, and die.)
On the surface, this looks like a perfectly humanitarian objection to the presence of evil, yet when carefully examined, we are in essence telling God “Look God- You have no right to allow people to suffer so miserably, and I will not obey Your command to accept Your Son as my Savior until You justify to me that Evil is truly necessary. Either You obey my demand, or I will go to the depths of hell willingly, as I will not serve a God that won’t abide by my inner sense of moralities.”
By stating something like the above, we are saying that our own ascribed moralities trump God’s moralities. In the following excerpt, a reader tells Glen that the bible is so disgustingly filled with violence and bloodshed, and ‘useless judgments.’ Take particular note of Glen’s careful discernment and appropriate answer to the two accusations at the following link (GlenMiller): http://www.christian-thinktank.com/evilgod.html
“—”Maybe we are getting closer to the issues here…I can detect two issues in this paragraph: (1) violence ‘caused by God’ and (2) divine judgments as being ‘senseless’…
On (1) you apparently consider it ‘evil’ for God to do violence (e.g. judicial execution, protection of the innocent), but it is not at all clear to me how you could support this view. I am not at all sure how creatures could have some absolute ‘right’ to restrict their Creator’s actions (good, bad, or otherwise)—the thought seems patently absurd to me. Maybe this a matter of the ‘senseless’ clause in (2) so let’s move on to that.
On (2), you assert that the divine judgments were/are ‘senseless’. This, of course, is a rather absolute statement of knowledge! Granted that you have been thinking about this for 40 years, I strongly suspect that God may actually have data / arguments / reasons that you haven’t had access to or have considered objectively. For you to asset that the judgments are ‘senseless’ MUST be restated more accurately as ‘I cannot see any sense in the divine judgments’—this is a huge difference and one MUCH MORE IN KEEPING with the limited epistemic faculties of humanity!
It would also probably be helpful for you to describe what kinds of judgments ARE ‘sense-ful’ according to your standards. Are judgments YOU make of people ‘sensible’? Why? What about the judgments you make of God or Christians or skeptics? How would YOU define ‘sensible’? I suspect (although it is early in our discussion and I could VERY EASILY be wrong) that your definition of ‘senseless’ is basically ‘that which you disagree with morally, or that which you cannot see a justification for’. Again, be careful that you are not being presumptive or rash in your conclusions.”
Glen has the particular gift of seeing through the veneer in questions, and getting to the root of objections in a patient and respectful manner. I’ve read a few of his dissertations on difficult issues asked by honest inquiring minds, and he has a way of making us see what it is that we really object to in a way that gently coerces our deepest root feelings to the surface.
Glen brings up a good point in this link. To some, the bible might seem filled, or at least the majority of it, filled with unkindness, Evil, pestilence, sufferings etc, and some might argue that love is rarely expressed in God’s word, yet let us not forget the tremendous sacrifices of Christ, the prophets, the apostles, the offer of forgiveness etc.
The emailer in the link above then gets to the core of his objections and tells Glen that he thinks God is unfair for killing babies, drowning ‘innocent’ people and animals, etc. Let’s take particular note of Glen’s response here:
“Now I think we are getting into your issues. What I see surfacing are some assumptions that you need to justify, in my opinion…
For example, you are making an assumption that God is ‘evil’ to drown what you call ‘innocent animals’. What, in your opinion is a ‘guilty’ animal? What moral standards are YOU aware of that you render upon God that requires him to ‘force’ every animal to die a ‘natural death’ (whatever that is?!)…
When God made animals, in what way was He obligated to them? When they die of ‘natural causes’ (e.g. ‘in their sleep’) in what sense is God ‘less’ (or ‘not’ ) guilty than if He has them drown in a flood or die from a tree-fall or get eaten by a predator? Or is God ‘morally required’ to have them ‘live forever’?!
While I would agree that I would find it offensive if God made animals (with requisite nervous systems) to simply torture them (cf. Proverbs 12.10 A righteous man cares for the needs of his animal, but the kindest acts of the wicked are cruel.), I consider that RADICALLY different that God making animals, demonstrating His goodness to them by a natural life-cycle and preservation of the species, and eventually causing cessation of consciousness. I don’t see this as evil as all; in fact, I have to consider it evidence for God’s goodness…
Now let’s take the case of human life. In what ways is God morally obligated to us? When we die of ‘natural causes’ (e.g. ‘in our sleep’) in what sense is God ‘less’ (or ‘not’) guilty than if He has us drown in a flood or die from a tree-fall or get shot by a violent criminal? Or is God ‘morally required’ to have us ‘live forever’?! (and what would be you privileged base of data to support a position on the above? Your ‘common sense’ , ‘moral intuitions’, ’statistical piety of your subculture’?)…”
Pretty powerful stuff here. Glen then goes on to show that we accuse God not based on God’s obligations as ruler of everything, but rather mistakenly based on our knowledge of Christ the redeemer, the perfect example of sevantude. Christ became our example of good, and we then assign what we think to be good to a God, the ruler of everything, an attribute that is inappropriate for an omnipotent God.
Every judge must judge absolutely (or at least they should, many do not, and judge unfairly- disobeying their creed and disobeying God in the process). God, the ultimate judge, will and does judge absolutely. Sin can not coexist alongside God’s supreme Holiness- it just simply can not. He must judge, and He must do so judiciously and fairly. God knows the past present and future, and He knows each person’s heart past present and future, and His judgments are based on that knowledge. Those cities that were wiped out in the Bible, were not the ‘innocent’ civilizations that people try to make them out to be when they argue that God acted unfairly, killing many ‘innocent’ babies, children and people. These cities were the worst of the worst- sacrificing their babies to false gods, killing people who believed in God. Their hearts were entirely evil (and would have been entirely evil had those innocent children’ been allowed to grow up- remember God knows the TRUE hearts of every person past present and future, and He is not fooled by their false exterior appearances- God looks into the hearts where no man can see)
I know that this is only a partial explanation of why God allows evil, and I’ll be glad to expand on this further in another post if any of you have questions, but I think that reading through the link above will begin to honestly answer many of the objections of those who honestly seek an answer.
Not my place to judge GOD or question GOD.
If this debate makes y’all happy, have at it.
It is what it is.
You mean of course of the fruit of the tree.
And of course again, it is all very simple.
And as for animals, pets are routinely beaten, maimed, tortured and killed by cruel individuals. Why does God allow that to happen?
Remember Satan was an angel who was envious of God so he chose to become evil.
The Origin of Evil and Suffering
Okay, so you are saying this world is not as ideal as Heaven, and the reason our world is worse is because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve. Am I correct?
If so, then I must ask: if God is all good, and all powerful, why did he structure things so that Adam and Eve *could* make a mistake? Why didn't God make the world so that Adam and Eve could have free will, but at the same time make them unable to stain humanity with their mistakes? That could not have been very difficult for an all-powerful being.
...Maybe God wants us to learn what true Love is so we will understand what it means to give and trust without question. Maybe if we'd truly loved Him we would have had that trust to obey without question and we'd still be in Eden.
An all-powerful God could have achieved those objectives without any risk of evil at all. Again, by definition God can do anything. So why did He even give us the slightest chance to mess things up, if He could have reached his desired outcome without the possibility of error?
[[If the desired end result is to bring souls to Heaven who believe and act a certain way, why not simply make them that way to begin with?]]
Because then you lose free will and love becomes shallow forced love.
[[Wouldn’t it be better to simply destroy the failed ones? Why create a being from nothing just so you can torture it for eternity?]]
That’s a pretty deep question and one I’ll have to be feelign a bit better to tackle-
[[unequal distribution of circumstances? For example, one person could be born into a godless family of thieves, while another born into a middle-class family of devout church-goers.]]
This assumes that circumstances dictate what the soul decides and discounts the fact that the Holy Spirit works on every single soul individually- There is a universal moral code that is written on each heart, and although a person can grow up to silence that code and the promptings of the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that the circumstances force a person to choose only hte evil- God gives each person a conscience to know hte right and wrong- There are many testimonies from natives who came out of compeltely evil civilizatiosn who confessed that although it was ‘acceptable’ by hte comunity to do the evil, they never felt right about it- this is powerful testimony to hte fact that there is indeed a universal moral code, and shows that civilizations who prefere the evil have tried to circumvent hte universal moral code with hteir own subjective codes and ethics- but hte fact remains, no matter how evil the society, the universal moral code still exists and EACH person chooses which they will serve.
[[Either person could choose the right or wrong path, but wouldn’t the child born to thieves be at a much higher risk for choosing the wrong path?]]
I don’t believe so- The Hoyl Spirit works on each heart individually and just as hard as any other person’s heart. God knows the hearts that want to do the good regardless of where they are raised. I’ll try to do a better job addressing that a bit later- perhaps I’ll do a post on it on my blog- it’s a good question
[[We assume that God is all-powerful and all-good]]
We actually do more than “assume”- we have first hand knowledge of htis fact through eyewitness accounts.
[[Why would God resort to any means that involved something “not good” if He is not bound by logic or the rules of this universe?]]
God resorts to evil?
[[For example, it is said that God allows evil so that we’ll have a point of comparison for appreciating the good.]]
I’ll have to correct you here- while an outcome of God’s actions can give us a reference of good and evil- God does not allow evil so that we will have a reference- He allows Evil as judgement, His actions and Holy and Just judgements are not for our ‘edification’.
[[Why couldn’t an all-powerful God, who created the universe and all the rules governing it, make it so that we could simulataneously enjoy free will AND not have the ability to make the wrong choices?]]
The quick answer is because then love is shallow and forced- there’s just no gettign aroudn this fact- if we’re made to love Him without hte possibility of choosing not to- then there simply is no choice, and thus no free will. (And by the way- as I’ve said in my blog in the past- God does work in the saved individual’s life to want to love Him as we aught- but htis coems after we freely choose to accept salvation. Even after salvation, we still have sin nature, and our wills still resist wanting to love and serve Him as we ought to, but ?He graciously gives us hte Holy Spirit which will, if we ask in a truthful and honest manner somethign liek “God- I really don’t weant to love You as I ought, please give me the desire even htough I don’t want it really becaue it conflicts with my will”
[[I know those questions seem illogical, but remember that God is the creator of logic and is not bound by logic.]]
No- they’r3e not illogical and are good quesitons.
[[An all powerful God, by definition, can achieve any objective by any means. ]]
Actually no- God’s Holiness can not achieve evil- all powerful does not mean capable of anythign imanigable- God’s Holy Nature constrains Him agaisnt doing certain things that are contrary to His nature.
That was quite a clever bit of reverse psychology on God's part.
[[Not my place to judge GOD or question GOD.]]
Nobody is judging God- And if you’ll read hte bible carefully, you will see that many did indeed question God- God is not above being questioned and welcomes inquirey
[[Why does God allow the torture of children who in their young lives have no conception of a supreme being and have no means to either accept or reject Jesus?]]
Do you know their future hearts? God does!
[[And as for animals, pets are routinely beaten, maimed, tortured and killed by cruel individuals. Why does God allow that to happen?]]
Because we invited evil into our lives when we ate hte apple, and now we have to endure hte consequences of our choice, and htis means that many many thigns will be unfair because evil peopel choose to do the evil instead of hte good. As well, our love of God is not dependent upon the good that is done to us- it involves a love that loves despite hte evil that is done- This is a powerful love, and not many peopel are willing to give this type of love-even to their creator.
and let’s not forget- those that torture will be repaid many fold for what they do on this earth- their judgement is awaiting htem
yeah, that is a somewhat easily understood aspect of evil/good- yet it is deeper than that and involves God’s Soveriegn right to judge and our being the clay of the potter, not the arbitrator of what God’s morals should or should not be.
Thank you for that link- I’ll certainly give it a good reading-
” the wise alone are able to do what they desire, but unscrupulous men can only labour at what they like, they cannot fulfil their real desires.”
I’ve made this argument for quite some time- those hwo think true freedom comes from ‘freely choosing’ evil and ashewing God so that ‘they may be totally free’ are infact subjecting htemselves to slavery to their passions and are far less free than those who submit to the King who gives us TRUE freedom
I’ve not read either of htose despite havign hte ‘mere christianity’ awhiel ago- never got aroufd to reading it. C.S was quite smart for sure.
[[Because He can. Never heard of the concept of “free will”, eh?]]
Free will? Wht’s that? Actually, the link I gave covers that quite well
All of that is true, according to *our* conception of logic. As we perceive things, humans can not be programmed to love God and at the same time exercise a meaningful choice to love God.
But if God is all-powerful, that means He isn't constrained by our conception of logic. After all, He is the author of logic and thus can fashion the rules to whatever He wants. If God wanted a universe where 2 + 2 = both 4 and 5, He could make it so. So why can't He make a universe where we automatically love Him, but at the same time our love is NOT shallow and forced?
Or is God constrained by our conception of logic, despite the fact that He is the one who designed logic itself? Is it possible for God to be constrained by His own creation?
Actually no- God’s Holiness can not achieve evil- all powerful does not mean capable of anythign imanigable- God’s Holy Nature constrains Him agaisnt doing certain things that are contrary to His nature.
I can accept the idea of a God who could not create evil. But where is the evil in what I am suggesting? I ask why God could not create a universe where evil did not exist. Surely prohibiting evil does not achieve evil...it seems like it would be the exact opposite. So why didn't God just prohibit evil in the first place, and use some other means to achieve all of His objectives that did not require the existence of evil?
Because it is hard to pull off a big flood every year.
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