Arguing about whether the F-35 can dogfight misses a really big point

Business Insider ^ | January 8, 2017 | Amanda Macias

[huldah1776]

WASHINGTON — According to some reports, America's fifth-generation stealth aircraft doesn't excel at dogfighting.

But fortunately, the F-35 Lightning II is not built for dogfighting.

While some analysts have argued that the air-to-air-combat capabilities of the F-35A won't match some of its peer aircraft, pilots who spoke to Business Insider pointed out that the US's fifth-generation fighter is designed in such a way that dogfighting may be an afterthought.

"If you were to engage an F-35 in say, a visual dogfight capability," US Air Force Brig. Gen. Scott Pleus began, "the capabilities of the F-35 are absolutely eye-watering compared to a fourth-generation fighter."

"The airplane has unbelievable maneuvering characteristics that make it completely undefeatable in an air-to-air environment," said Pleus, who has 153 flight hours in the F-35A and is the director of the F-35 integration office.

"So if it's a long-range contact, you'll never see me and you'll die, and if it's within visual-range contact you'll see me and you're gonna die and you're gonna die very quickly."

[huldah1776]

Zoom, zoom. They'll figure it all out. And I'm happy they're keeping the A-10.

[rbg81]

There was a similar debate in Vietnam. Reliance on Air-to-Air missiles degraded dogfighting skills. And the AA missiles weren’t as effective as advertised. Of course, technology has improved since then, but its still a cautionary tale.

[Snickering Hound]

You got 2 AMRAAM’s and 2 bombs and no gun.

Good luck.

[rdcbn]

The F-35 has a very awesome gun.

[EagleUSA]

Bureaucrats.

[Snickering Hound]

The F-35 has a very awesome gun.

The current software on the F-35 doesn't support a gun.

It's supposed to be deployed with the next software but they're having problems with it.

When the door that hides the gun to keep the F-35 stealthy opens, it jerks the plane making it miss.

The gun only has 220 rounds and just a few seconds of firing time. And not all models even get that.

[SkyPilot]

The author is either a lobbyist for Lockheed, or does not seem to grasp that since the F-22 was cut by Obama, the hundreds of Billions we have poured into the overweight F-35 was "invested" to make it an all purpose fighter that was unmatched in the air-to-air role.

The Marines wanted it to be one thing. The Air Force another. Now that most people know it cannot ever be what it was sold as, they are making apologies for it, or trying to change the parameters of the debate (as this author did).

Two former Skunk Works members seem to know why the F-35 program is a mess

[Gaffer]

The F35 has a pod with a gun

[StAnDeliver]

It’s a large manned drone with an exhaust can underneath.

[CodeToad]

“The F-35 has a very awesome gun.”

With a few seconds of ammo. Good luck with that.

[StAnDeliver]

"The Marines wanted it to be one thing."

Cut it loose. Give it to the Marines, and let AF / Army go back to F-18 / A-10 next gens.

[Yo-Yo]

The F-35 has a very awesome gun.

The F-35A has a very awesome internally-mounted gun and 182 very awesome rounds to shoot through it.

The F-35B and F-35C have no internal gun, but they do have an awesome optional externally carried stealthy gun pod carrying a staggering 220 rounds.

At a fire rate of 3,000 rpm, that's just 3.64 seconds of trigger time for the F-35A, and 4.4 seconds for the F-35B and F-35C, when they decide to take the weight penalty of fitting the gun pod for a particular mission.

But then, the software needed to shoot the gun won't be ready until 2019 at the earliest. So, the F-35's awesome gun is just awesome ballast for now.

[rdcbn]

The Air Force F-35A has an internal gun, the Marine and Navy B and C models have pod mounted guns with higher ammo capacity

[Psalm 73]

F-22 is more of an "air-superiority" aircraft, F-35 is "ground-attack"
The venerable F-15s could easily perform both roles well. For much less money.

[Organic Panic]

The F35 is a jobs program and corporate welfare boondoggle.

[beelzepug]

“...AF / Army go back to F-18 / A-10...”

The Army has no armed, fixed-wing aircraft. Apparently we aren’t smart enough to use them. Funny, we seemed to do alright in WWII.

[smokingfrog]

If an F-35 ever finds itself in a dogfight, either something went wrong or it ran out of missiles.

A nose mounted cannon would be nice for a dogfight but would ruin it's low radar signature.

[Afterguard]

The AF doesn’t fly the F/A-18. Just the Navy and Marines.

[USNBandit]

All the "it can't beat an F-16" came from a set of flight tests when the F-35 was still limited to an ludicrously low angle of attack. As subsequent tests have proven the calculated envelope, the AOA limit has been increased.

There is a good chance we won't ever know the actual limits of the aircraft, just like we don't know what the F-22 can really do. Pure speculation, but the F-35 pilot's confidence in the WVR arena is part maneuverability and part eye watering off boresight weapons system, all aspect sensors, and an unmatched helmet.

[smokingfrog]

Bring back the Mohawk.