Posted on 09/16/2012 11:52:44 AM PDT by fabian
Now celebrating 52 years of helping people on the radio! For over half a century Roy Masters has been helping people overcome their most difficult problems. As the nation’s first and longest running radio counselor, Roy Masters has advised callers with a unique ability to hear inner problems, heal fears and sexual stresses, and help people take charge of their own lives. Great show and exactly what the world needs! Here is a radio show stations page... http://www.fhu.com/radiostations.html
You "turn" people on to Roy Masters and he, according to you, is a Christian, so who does Masters turn people on to? If it's not Jesus, then he is NOT a genuine Christian. The entire ministry of Christianity is to lead people to saving faith in Jesus Christ. Turning someone on to being still - without the Gospel being preached to them so that they can meditate on that - is pointless and could be a pathway to demonic possession. How does Masters help people to keep their minds on "things above" and not "things below"?
And once again I ask you to explain WHY someone must deny that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh in order to be "born again" the Masters' way? Nothing you have said so far has done this. There must be a reason, what is it? Is this part of Roy Masters' gospel, or is it the gospel according to Fabian?
I have already explained my points well...why don’t you open your eyes? And I do not speak for Roy Masters. Once again, it is very attainable to love JESUS AND BECOME FREE OF SIN JUST AS HE COMMANDED mary to go and sin no more...clear as day that was. But the apostacy teaches that Jesus was God, making all that more unattainable to live sin free as he did since after all who could actually do that other than God? You guys are really missing the boat. My life is free of sin and fear and yours could be too if you would stop denying the power of what Jesus and God accomplished.
I have already explained my points well...why don’t you open your eyes? And I do not speak for Roy Masters. Once again, it is very attainable to love JESUS AND BECOME FREE OF SIN JUST AS HE COMMANDED mary to go and sin no more...clear as day that was. But the apostacy teaches that Jesus was God, making all that more unattainable to live sin free as he did since after all who could actually do that other than God? You guys are really missing the boat. My life is free of sin and fear and yours could be too if you would stop denying the power of what Jesus and God accomplished.
How is it that we are "missing the boat"? I do not deny the power of what Jesus who IS God accomplished. Where you are missing the boat is in stating that sinless perfection is attainable in the flesh - it isn't. The ONLY way Jesus could live a TRULY sinless life so that he could offer that life upon the cross to make atonement for sin is because he IS God. We have already listed the Scripture passages that attest to this - the words of the OT prophets, Jesus' OWN words and those of the NT writers ALL state clearly that he IS God in the flesh.
Does God desire that we live holy lives? Of course! Does he empower us to live for him in victory? Yes! But will we still struggle with sins of commission and omission? YES! We are not yet made perfect on this earth in this body of flesh - though we have a spirit nature that desires to and lives for God and we are clothed in the righteousnes of Christ so that when God looks at us, He sees the perfect sinlessness of Christ. That is why God tells us in Scripture that we have an advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ the righteous. Now why would we need an advocate if we could be sinless? What need would we have for someone to make intercession for us as the Holy Spirit does if we had no need for such? Why were we given instructions for confession to God - who is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness - if He intended us to be able to live without such needs?
But thank you for finally stating what the TRUE reason is for the denial of the deity of Jesus Christ. According to Masters, and you, Jesus was a man who attained perfect holiness and so can we. Right? You say that if Jesus was God and THAT was why he could be sinless, then living a sinless life is "unattainable" for mere men. Right? So how do you explain these Scripture passages:
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:20-28)
It is clear from Scripture that we are NOT saved, born again, because we have attained perfection and sinlessness, but because of God's grace that he gifts to us. We are JUSTIFIED by faith and NOT by our works, or our good deeds, or our sinless living. This, dear Fabian, is the GOSPEL. The good news - that's what "gospel" means. We don't achieve sinlessness by any works that we do - we CANNOT attain sinlessness because we have ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) Being saved is impossible for anyone to attain outside of the free gift of God's saving grace. The "wages of sin is death", Romans 6:23) says. God requires BLOOD to make atonement for sin (Leviticus 7:11), and ONLY blood. That means death pays the penalty for sin. Do you at least admit that you HAVE sinned? Will you agree that you are a sinner and that you accept the grace of God to save you from the penalty of your sins? Unless you have done this, you are STILL dead in your sins. You may believe you no longer sin, but your past sins require atonement - and Jesus is our redeemer, he is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.
The life I now lead I live by faith in Christ, he has freed me from the eternal punishment for my sins by his shed blood. I cannot save myself, you can't, nobody can. Without Christ, who died in our stead, we would ALL still be dead in our sins, without hope in this world. The power of what Jesus accomplished is that we have been redeemed, we have been saved, we have been made righteous, justified and sanctified by the precious blood of Christ. We do not attain this by what WE do for God. We receive God's grace through faith and we live by that same grace as he empowers us to live victoriously in Christ. It is SO much more than mere humans can accomplish. I pray that you will see your way through to this realization, that you do not allow pride to prevent you from accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior.
There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love. (I John 4:18)
What?
No comment on #276?
No; the BIBLE does:
Rather than being born again thru repentant faith in the Lord Jesus, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:8,9; Eph. 1:13, which is just one of the many refutations of Masterism, and thus are given the Holy Spirit to illuminate your mind as you walk in obedience, (Jn. 16:13; 1Cor. 2:15) what you must be missing is the occultic evidence of a Higher Presence in meditation manifested by such things as,
Cold shivers, occasional perspiration, and labored or heavy breathing which reveal contact-response to a higher consciousness.
Occasionally you will feel suspended in space, as if your body had melted into the universe and become “one” with all nature... (Masters, How Your Mind Can Keep You Well, p. 31,40; http://www.theworldviewcenter.org/encyclopedia_foundationforhumanunderstanding.html)
At least this spirit does not result in them going into fire, (Mt. 17:19) at least not in this life.
And some of the fruits of this demonic “understanding” include:
If a dog had tempted Adam to fall, he “would have had sexual
feeling toward that dog.” (His view of the Fall is that it instituted sex and procreation.)
“Sex is . . . the evidence of original sin.”
“Christ gave us the perfect example by suffering the physical stress without resenting torment—earning life eternal.”
“Many of the Scriptures have been deleted,” and that the “best parts” of the Bible are left out.
YOU ARE NOT MEANT TO LEARN VERSE AND CHAPTER. Study kills. Masters: [So] I threw a Bible in the garbage can. That Bible can go in the garbage can just as soon as anything can go in the garbage can. Slop can go in the garbage can, because the Bible isn’t God. [contra in principle to 1Cor. 7:14, etc.]
The whole process of growing is not from words but from realizing and then you can throw your Bible in the garbage can and there’s no sin in that.
Refs and more: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2931985/posts?page=172#172
It’s getting awful dusty along this road...
The idea that Christians cannot sin, which state the often arrogant Masters claims for himself, has been refuted before, but the assertion that they do not is simply repeated.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " (1 John 1:8-9)
The “we” here includes Christians, and does not refer to being simply sinners by nature, or our past life.
"For in many things we offend all." (James 3:2a)
"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation [duplicity, hypocrisy]" (Galatians 2:11-13)
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
The Greek scholar Robertson states,
The present active participle (poiōn) means the habit of doing sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Sinneth not (ouch hamartanei). Linear present (linear menōn, keeps on abiding) active indicative of hamartanō, “does not keep on sinning.” For menō (abide) see 1Jo_2:6; Joh_15:4-10.
Whosoever sinneth (ho hamartanōn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menōn above, “the one who keeps on sinning” (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as hamartēsas, aorist active participle, would mean).
Hath not seen him (ouch heōraken auton). Perfect active indicative of horaō. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnōken, perfect active also) of Christ. He means, of course, spiritual vision and spiritual knowledge, not the literal sense of horaō in Joh_1:18; Joh_20:29.(WORD PICTURES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT by Archibald Thomas Robertson)
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." (1Jn. 3:7,8)
We see here that John is not speaking in an absolute sense, but as regards overall characteristics, as the lost can do things that are objectively righteous, such as feeding his brethren who are needy, while as seen in Gal. 2:11-13, Christians do sin.
To be perfect, as loving your enemies, blessing them that curse you, doing good to them that hate you, is commanded (Mt. 5:48) and perfection in abiding in Christ by longsuffering faith throughout all trials and temptations, (Heb. 2:10; 5:9; 1Pt. 1:6,7) and not offending in word, (Ja. 3:2) keeping His word and and only serving out of love-motivation, (Jn. 2:5; 4:17,18) is a goal of grace, fulfilling the righteousness of the law. (Rm. 8:4)
But this state is not that of being being born again as Masters teaches, but which occurs in conversion, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:8,9; Eph. 1:13) nor is achieving this a prerequisite for being a Christian and saved, as “God justifies the UnGodly by faith,” (Rm. 4:5) but who evidence that faith as salvific by growing in grace with its fruits, especially in effectual love for the brethren. (Heb. 6:9,10)
For "The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit," (Psalms 34:18) and it cannot be said that the criminal on the cross, who went to be with the Lord the same day that he died, (Lk. 23:39-43) had attained perfection of character, nor were all the Thessalonians and Corinthians practically perfect, yet they were told that they would forever be with the Lord had He returned in their day, (1Thes. 4:17), except such as had "not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." (2Cor. 12:21)
Thus they were to examine themselves, whether they were in the faith, (2Cor. 13:5) their lives being characterized by walking in obedience to Christ by the Spirit, doing righteousness as John describes them, and which includes repentance when convicted of not doing do. (1Jn. 1:8,9; Rv. 2:1-6) As true faith is repentant, and this is necessary, so God works to chastens believers back to faith as necessary, so that they will not be condemned with the rest of the world, and also motivates this by warning of making Christ of none effect by falling away. (1Cor. 11:32; cf. Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 10:35-39) While true faith versus false faith may not always be clearly manifest, 1Jn. describe the overall characteristics of those who have eternal life, which 1Jn. 5:13 refers to, including confessing sin.
Further testimony that complete perfection of character is not a requirement for salvation is seen by the fact that some believers will suffer loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (at His return), because some of the material which they built the church with, insomuch as they did, did not endure the fire which tests faith. And which is a reflection of their character. See my understanding here on 1Cor. 3:8-17 (and which also does not refer to purgatory).
Your link has nothing to do with roy Masters at all. Sorry you cannot see that through your real judgment. you and others should take a good look at these passages which totally back me up...
1 Pet. 2:11 ABSTAIN FROM FLESHLY LUST, which war against the soul
1 Pet. 2:21 CHRIST also suffered for us, Leaving us an example, that YE SHOULD FOLLOW HIS STEPS
1 Pet. 2:22 WHO DID NO SIN
1 Pet. 4:1 He that hath suffered in the flesh HATH CEASED FROM SIN
1 Pet. 4:2 NO LONGER should LIVE the rest of his time IN THE FLESH to the lusts of men, but to the will of GOD
2 Pet. 2:4 If GOD SPARED NOT THE ANGELS THAT SINNED, but cast them down to hell
2 Pet. 2:5 AND SPARED NOT THE OLD WORLD, but saved Noah
2 Pet. 2:6 MAKING THEM AN ENSAMPLE unto those that after should live ungodly
2 Pet. 2:9 THE LORD KNOWETH HOW TO DELIVER THE GODLY OUT OF TEMPTATIONS
1 John 1:7 THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN
1 John 1:9 AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS
1 John 2:1 THAT YE SIN NOT,
1 John 2:6 HE THAT SAITH HE ABIDETH IN HIM OUGHT himself also so TO WALK, EVEN AS HE WALKED
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him SINNETH NOT
1 John 3:8 HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL
1 John 3:9 WHOSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN
1 John 3:10 Whosoever DOTH NOT righteousness IS NOT OF GOD
1 John 5:18 Whosoever IS BORN OF GOD SINNETH NOT
2 John 9 Whosoever TRANSGRESSETH, AND ABIDETH NOT in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT GOD
3 John 11 He that DOETH GOOD IS OF GOD, but he that DOETH EVIL HATH NOT SEEN GOD AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANYTHING THAT DEFILETH, NEITHER WHATSOEVER WORKETH ABOMINATION OR MAKETH A LIE
So you see, you guys can be free of sin but WILL not in your willful ignorance and huge excuse making to the point of vilifying Roy Masters who provides a simple pathway to that salvation which is indeed Biblical.
A mere bunch of words!!
Words are great when they are used to impart truth and not used from the Bible to make excuses for sin. That was a really poor response. ..but I expect nothing more from you. Have a good one!
Lot is called righteous Lot in spite of his gross sin.
Psalm 103:13&14
13 As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. 14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
It's the same nonsense I had Mormons tell me about that verse.
How careless of Jesus to not elaborate when He had the opportunity to do so.
Your master is a liar and the father of lies.
Well, looks like the Morons have something correct! And you have no clue who my master is....sadly.Nor how happy and free I have truly become, thank God!
Morons? Did you make a mistake and mean Mormons? Sorry, fabian, but you are NOT anywhere near as sinless and perfect as you imagine yourself to be. The perfection required to enter heaven is as perfect as GOD and that means NEVER having EVER sinned or made a mistake. The verse you partially quoted is from Revelation 21:27, not I John. The verse says:
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
So, like I said in an earlier post, if you have EVER told even ONE lie, you can not enter into heaven. But those who are written in the Lamb's book of life WILL be there. They are those who have washed their robes clean in the blood of the Lamb - they are those who have by faith received the gift of God's grace through faith. In James 2:10 says, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.". It does no good to claim to be sinless, when you are human because ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory (perfection) of God.
What do you do about all the sins you DID commit before you became "free"? Do you at least accept that Jesus died so that you can be cleansed of all your sins? Do you understand that it is blood that makes atonement for sins and NOT being good? What good will it do for you to be "happy and free" for this short time on earth if your eternity is not resolved? It truly is something to thank God for when we can KNOW that we have eternal life through faith in Christ because, without Him, we are doomed to an eternity separated from God in hell. Happy and free NO ONE will be there!
ooops...it is not a sin to make an error. Honestly, your arguments have descended into ridiculous and I choice not to follow.
You have missed the point, fabian. An "error" - any error - demonstrates imperfection. Romans 3:23, says "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Sin - the English word for the Greek hamartanÅ, means:
1) to be without a share in
2) to miss the mark
3) to err, be mistaken
4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
To "come short" of the perfection of God, is the Greek word hystereō and it means:
1) behind
All humans have sinned, so my argument isn't ridiculous at all. I am gently trying to help you to see that you have a sin problem - even now in your presumed sinless state. I'm simply asking you what you do about that. Will you at least admit that you HAVE sinned in your life? Don't feel embarrassed, we ALL have sinned, all except for Jesus, that is, and that is because he is God in the flesh.
Jesus did not come to earth and figure out how to be sinless so he could go to heaven and be our example. He specifically came to earth to be our sacrifice for ALL sins and his blood was shed in propitiation for sin. That fancy word means "payment in full". We can go to heaven because of what Christ did for us, not because we practice a meditation exercise. So far, you have not been following ANY arguments. Why not start now?
And if both true, then 1) being born of God does grant us a new nature with a power over sin we did not have before, but 2) we also continue to have fights with our old nature, and we can lose those fights. This fits perfectly with the teaching of Paul in Romans 6-7 concerning our old nature, which he links to our mortal flesh. We have many deficiencies. Even the universe itself is in a state of decay due to the curse.
The hard truth is, many scars of our spiritual disease remain and will remain until the renewal of creation at the end of this age. We are free from the root cause of death, yet we still die. We are free from the root cause of all disease, and God sometimes heals us, sometimes even raises Lazarus from death. But we still get sick. Lazarus, as far as anyone knows, died a second time.
We have been redeemed judicially. Christ died for our sin. Satan was defeated. Death was defeated. But the Lord means to build His church, to grow his saints, to teach us His ways, to deepen our faith, and raise our aspirations. And so we are also being redeemed daily from our sins, made cleaner and cleaner each step of the way.
Therefore John is right of course, when he says that those born of God cannot remain in continuous, open sin (that is the sense of the Greek). God’s spirit within a believer will never settle for spiritual stagnancy. A homosexual who believes they can continue in that sin and also abide in Christ is sadly mistaken. Or a person who believes they can continue coveting other people’s goods, or murdering unborn children, or carrying hatred in their heart toward some person or group of persons, or worshiping a multiplicity of gods or worshipping a false Christ, and everything will still turn out fine with God, is just kidding themselves. These are all examples of delusion. We are all called to repent and do what is right and believe what is right.
But just as Jeremiah saw the unfathomable deceitfulness of the human heart, so also King David, a man after God’s own heart, was worried about sins he sinned without even realizing it:
Psa 19:12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Jesus gets to these kinds of sins in the sermon on the mount. They are not measured by your own sense of happiness or self-satisfaction, Fabian. It doesn’t matter how good or bad you feel about yourself. John says sin is the transgression of God’s law, and Jesus makes it clear that such sin comes from deep within the heart. Merely looking too long at a racy image on an FR thread can beget the sin of lust. Merely calling someone “dummy” can reflect the sin of pride. Merely applying a double standard will bring a charge of hypocrisy (BTW, in light of the Polycarp quote, will you admit your error regarding the deity of Christ being taught by the early church?).
But there is hope:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is a present tense process. It happens every day. It needs to happen every day. Jesus illustrated it with Peter:
Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. [9] Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. [10] Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
If we are forgiven of our sins in the death of Christ, we are clean before God. But while we live in these mortal bodies, we walk in the dust of the world, and carry about our old memories and our old nature, and every day our feet collect that dust of daily living, and daily we need to be washed. And he is only too happy to wash us. But only if we admit the need of it.
Peace,
SR
Of course!
It is irrelevant to him; since he has progressed into the level of sinlessness on earth.
The REST of you will just have to wait until Heaven to attain this state.
--Obermeister_Wanna_Be(Can't you just Be Still® like Fabian has learned?)
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