Did Muhammad Ever Really Live?

Spiegel (Germany) ^ | 9/18/2008

[Perdogg]

A number of Islamic associations have put a quick end to their collaboration with a professor -- and trainer of people who are supposed to teach Islam in German high schools -- who has expressed his doubt that Muhammad ever lived. Islam scholar Michael Marx spoke with SPIEGEL ONLINE about what lies behind the debate and the historical person of the Prophet.

[SunkenCiv]

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	Gods Graves Glyphs	Thanks Perdogg. Zul-Qarnain - What is the argument? by Jochen Katz I have never claimed that Zul-Qarnain *is* the historical Alexander the Great. I don't know why your move to agree with me in this is considered a rebuttal... The argument is then that the Qur'anic story is clearly taken from the legends about Alexander. There are many many details of the Qur'an account which are nearly verbatim to be found in the Alexander legends. Conclusion: Zul-Qarnain clearly is the Alexander the Great of the legend stories. And because the Qur'an presents the material from the legends as if this were history, it shows that Muhammad could not distinguish between legends and history when he incorporated this material in the Qur'an. This is evidence that the Qur'an is not of divine origin. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
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[bert]

......I never understood why the virgin thing is such a big deal to these guys. I mean, really, who wants virgins....

The correct term is Houris. Houris inhabit Paradise nd are there to serve. They are young and beautiful and skilled in serving.

Houris have been interpreted as Virgins in a sexual context but that is not really the whole story.

[Philo-Junius]

Lots of physicists and other scientists without expertise in anthropology or history are willing to deny the existence of Jesus because they want a contemporary artifact they can examine for themselves—a hotel receipt from the Last Supper, or something like that.

Historians and anthropologists are much more willing to concede Jesus’ historical existence because of the documentary evidence of a cult of Jesus shortly after His putative existence, and because of the shameful nature of His death, which, if invented, could certainly have been more “heroic”—beheading, like St. James, for instance.

[Kevmo]

Excellent reference, thanks. I’ll put it on my Amazon wishlist.

[norton]

It is silly, and divisive, to question the existence of Jesus or of Mohammad.
But it is entirely reasonable to inquire into whether or not they have come down to us in any accurate form - were they actually as described in the two (opposing) theologies.
For my part, it seems much more reasonable to look at their immediate followers, and their immediate followers, in order to determine how the historic persons came to be.

And; I am still confused, is this historical question worse than a cartoon, equal to a cartoon, or (since there are no visuals) merely worth being beaten up in an alley?

PS: Has anyone ever attempted to compare the entity of Allah with...oh,say; Satan?
After all, Lucifer would have known much the same as did Gabriel - and Christ.
It is an opposing theology - the "other" side.
And, six hundred years does not seem too long a time for a counter attack.

[jas3]

Excellent reference, thanks. I’ll put it on my Amazon wishlist.

[Old Student]

“If Muhammed never lived then how did Allah get all of his xenophobic, sexist, racist, violent teachings written down?”

IIRC, Mohammad was illiterate. His sayings were written down after his death. So a more appropriate question is “Did Mohammad say what they say he said?”

Personally, I can imagine him sitting there in Heaven, wondering why his closest advisers so distorted his words. Heck, he may just be wondering why the had him murdered.

Not that I'd be prepared to bet on it, but it makes as much sense as any other theory I've heard on the subject.

[chesley]

Can we get a conference going on “the historical Mohammed”? It would do Islam a lot more good than the search for the “Historical Jesus” ever did.

[Fred Nerks]

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html

‘...”For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply “white.” Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for “houri,” which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means “white raisin.”

Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors...’

[Fred Nerks]

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html

‘...Ms. Crone insists that the Koran and the Islamic tradition present a fundamental paradox. The Koran is a text soaked in monotheistic thinking, filled with stories and references to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Jesus, and yet the official history insists that Muhammad, an illiterate camel merchant, received the revelation in Mecca, a remote, sparsely populated part of Arabia, far from the centers of monotheistic thought, in an environment of idol-worshiping Arab Bedouins. Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel, Ms. Crone says, historians must somehow explain how all these monotheistic stories and ideas found their way into the Koran.

“There are only two possibilities,” Ms. Crone said. “Either there had to be substantial numbers of Jews and Christians in Mecca or the Koran had to have been composed somewhere else.” ...

---

plagiarism.

[SunkenCiv]

[Larry Lucido]

You haven't lived until you've had a Whopper with bacon.

Muhammad never had a Whopper with bacon.

Therefore, Muhammad never lived.

[bk1000]

“PS: Has anyone ever attempted to compare the entity of Allah with...oh,say; Satan?After all, Lucifer would have known much the same as did Gabriel...”

Allegedly, Mad Mo went into a dank cave so “Gabriel” could tell him the “word of god”. First, one does not hide in a cave to speak with the Lord, one goes to a mountaintop. If it was Gabriel, which it wasn’t, he would have been sent by the Lord, and there would have been no need to hide in a cave. Furthermore, If the Lord had something to communicate to Mad Mo, particularly something as important as His word, He would have communicated directly, as He did with Moses. The Koran is false, based on these things alone. I am no theologian, but tell me I’m wrong here.

[Mrs. Don-o]

From what I've read, after his first few visitation by the (we'll say) Bodiless Entity, Mohammad was scared out of his wits and fairly convinced he'd been perturbed by a demon. It was his wife, Khadija bint Khuwaylid--- for whom he had genuine love and religious esteem--- who convinced him that it must have been Jibreel (Gabriel).

And where would she have gotten this idea?

Khadijah had two cousins or uncles who had converted (from polytheism) to Christianity. One went to Constantnople and became what we call Eastern Orthodox. The other, Waraqah bin Naufal, become what we (somewhat confusingly) call Oriental Orthodox, or Nestorian/Monophysite: Another branch of early Christianity connected neither to Rome nor to Constantinople.

I'm not saying Khadijah was some kind of Christian. I'm supposing she knew a bit of Christian teaching from her Orthodox or Bestorian kin and her business dealings with Christians who ware commercial travelers.

It was this vaguelyChristian theological framework which gave her the confidence tosay, "Shaitan? Oh, no, it must have been Jibreel. You know, according to the ancient writings, the entity who visits you from God is always Jibreel."

[bk1000]

Excellent information. Thanks. It is interesting that the story would follow the Bible, in that Kadija(Eve) misled Mohammed(Adam) due perhaps to her misunderstanding of the entity.

[morphing libertarian]

server cannot be found

[litehaus]

Did Muhammad Ever Really Live?

If Muhammed never lived then how did Allah get all of his xenophobic, sexist, racist, violent teachings written down?

Akshulee,satan sent one of his demons to play the part of Mo Hamm Mud.....

[Mrs. Don-o]

Ah! Interesting! I hadn’t thought of that.