When Atheists Attack (Each Other)

The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.

On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.

I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.

Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.

Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,

We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.

Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.

That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!

It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.

There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,

I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.

A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.

There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.

The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.

Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.

Thank you for your reply.

Do you not understand English?

I do understand English.

I will not answer your question the way it is worded, using the words you choose. I answered it using the words I choose.

If you had said you won't answer it earlier, that would have been better.

I answered it using the words I choose.

I don't see how "But I surely know that I was not saved because I did these things." answers the question "Is baptism optional. But, I do understand, you don't want to answer the question.

If you don't like my answer, please go elsewhere and seek the answer you want from others.

Again, I don't see any logical way to claim it answers the question; but, you said you won't now so it's done.

I asked you first.

Ok, I'll give it a shot. There are sins of omission and sins of commission. Obviously, this, if it is a sin, would fall in the former category.

Is it a sin not "to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"? I think so. I think it might be closer to say if we do not choose to be baptized we are refusing God's grace in the sacrament. If we do so out of ignorance, it would be one thing; if we do so out of pride, another.

Your turn.

boabtums: Show me where Jesus said "water baptism".

Baptism through water by the Holy Spirit

Let's start from the very beginning. It's a very good place to start....

1 Pet 3:20 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Now fast forward to the baptism of Jesus Christ, skipping over the crossing of the Red Sea --> how does Jesus Christ's ministry start? By being baptised through water by the Holy Spirit

Mt 3:13 13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. -- now, John was not baptising with thin air but with water

Now, after HIS RESURRECTION, Christ gave the Apostles their mission:

Mt 28:19-20 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

And He had given a prefix of this before that Jn 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And at the time of His Crucifixion, this was Water and Spirit, the blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.
Jn 19:34

34But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

1 Jn 5:6-8

6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"

================================

Now, look at what we see the Apostles doing -- the Ethiopian in Acts 8

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

This is emphasised in Eph 5:26

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

===================

And this is what has always been believed and followed as taught by Jesus Christ and passed down through the Apostles

AndrewC: Baptism is a sign of obedience. But to be saved...

What does the bible say?

1 Pet 3:21 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: -- Baptism saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ's grace, His sacrifice is what saves you and HE gave his command in Mk 16:16 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

One cannot say this is a symbol -- look at the statements throughout the New Testament:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. -- clear eh?
Acts 22:16; And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name
Rom. 6:1–4; 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Eph. 5:26; to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,

This is not a symbol -- Christ was very clear that you must repent, confess your sins, believe, be baptised, eat of His body and endure to the end and you will receive His grace of salvation.

Do not put human logic to twist His words

I am saved despite your objections.

Who said anything about you being saved or not? I never did -- that's between you and your maker

however, Jesus Christ clearly stated that to be saved by His grace provided by His salvation

Matt. 24:13

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

Andrew I am saved despite your objections.

Who said anything about you being saved or not? I never did -- that's between you and your maker

however, Jesus Christ clearly stated that to be saved by His grace provided by His salvation

Matt. 24:13

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

as I pointed above -- this is what Jesus Christ HIMSELF said is needed for salvation

-- repentence, confession of sins, baptism as per the trinitarian formula, eucharist and endurance to the end.

Now where you are in following Jesus Christ's commands is up to you.

He is there, waiting to grant His freely given grace of salvation to all who follow His commands..

Andrew I am saved despite your objections.

Who said anything about you being saved or not? I never did -- that's between you and your maker

however, Jesus Christ clearly stated that to be saved by His grace provided by His salvation

Matt. 24:13

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt 25:31-46 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words

1 Pet. 3:20-21: " It (Baptism )saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Note -- also in Acts 16:31 we are told to believe and you will be saved -- so Faith is definitely one of the things needed, yet as you see above, it is not ONLY faith. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves

Jesus said it is not faith ALONE. We are saved by God's GRACE. Full-stop.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
1. He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
2. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3)<,li> [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
no one is denying that one MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE. As shown above, Jesus Himself said that
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject
The problem happens when one takes one section of the word in isolation.

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