Free Republic

"But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, "This was their finest hour." - Winston Churchill, 1940

The words still ring true.

Slap the British Bulldog and you will be bitten.

Thoughts and prayers with our dear cousins and Allies in the UK.

Yeah,

I hate the Olympics now...ever since the Cold War ended they really haven't been as much fun to watch. I snored through Sydney and didn't even watch 5 minutes of Athens.

The turning point for me was in Atlanta when they released the fake doves because they didn't want to "harm" real doves.

All the Olympics is now is an international fest of long- hair origami making diversity huggers.

If it is an historic display I would say no simply because it would be a matter of anachronism...

But if you mean as far as private displays in homes etc. Sure I'd agree. It would be better taste. I've always followed such a policy out of respect for my nation the USA. It is 2005 not 1865 after all.

In fact I got in a near fist fight in high school about such a case when I argued the US takes precedence...ie the war is over we are all Americans first and Lee himself argued the same point after the war. And after 4 years of college of arguing against neo-confederates about the damage they do to the "cause" I've frankly about given up. In my own life I've learned the CSA has its place and in other cases does not have its place.

I found Frat T-shirts (I went to Ole Miss, class of 2000) with the Rebel flag at Iwo Jima or the moon to be offensive and said so. I shake my head at people who put CSA on their return address or such nonsense.

I mean I think a lot of people who fly the flag at their homes aren't exactly history buffs, and when you see it esp. in the north one gets the hint that it has more of an anti-government sentiment.

You see when racist redneck or black helicopter types misuse the Confederate flag they actually dishonor the memory of those young boys who died in defense of it. Those soldiers are more important to defend than the banner itself. Without them the banner has no purpose at all. Confederate flag misuse...It makes the South look bad and stereotypical in the eyes of others. And if I perceive right I think you are subtly arguing that it embarrasses conservatives which is why it offends you.

While we would both agree that they have the right to do so..I think we both probably also agree that in those cases it is offensive. I don't think this flag does any good on the interstate but also don't need lawyers to decide that for me.

You know I've argued that if more Southern blacks visited Civil War battlefields and more Southern whites visited Civil rights memorials we could really solve this problem.

Hollywood and the Beltway won't let us solve it (the real Yankees I hate). And it is true that this pro South backlash often plays into their hands and stereotypes us.

Americans as a whole (present company of Freepers excluded) are too d@mn ignorant of history. The study of history aids in the study of current events. If we know our history we will be wiser in how we show it and display it.

In fact I've given up joining in these North/South freeper clashes (why should conservatives beat each other up?) and only chimed in because of your one comment.

I see now you were acting out of frustration rather than viciousness. I take back my earlier anger and am glad we have had a civil and fruitful discussion.

It's what FR should be about.

I truly respect your beliefs.

My basic problem is that such a bumper sticker is the kind usually seen next to a Kerry/Edwards sticker.

I differentiate between people who choose to fly the flag for historic purposes and those for political purposes.

I have real problems with new-confederates or those who wish to refight the war.

I think in this case you have an obvious political statement...and such uses/displays of the Confederate flag often do more damage image wise to the defense of historic monuments and such than help them.

As a Virginian, and someone who both majored in history and works in a history museum, I take pride in the military actions of Virginians when visiting Civil War battlefields. So at a reeactment or museum I think most people just wish to honor their ancestors soldier sacrifice.

On the other hand I choose not to wave a giant battle flag in people's faces because it has obviously other connotations that are negative.

If I were to put up a Confederate flag, I'd use the original "first national" and do so on say Lee's birthday or something. I enjoy the study of the history of the Civil War and would be the first to recognize many of the faults of the CSA government (having worked in Jefferson Davis' home).

Still I really take offense at someone who would call Confederate soldiers "losers" because I know d@mn well they wouldn't dare say the same thing about the Sioux or the Apache tribes who also fought against the US government.

My wish in life is for Southerners (and most do btw) to support their roots in their proper context and place and not to "overdo" it.

I do think that this giant I-65 flag is not the right message to send. Nevertheless it is a counter protest to the liberal groups who wish to stamp out the flag even for historic monuments and are the SAME people who wish to remove George Washington's name from school buildings or protest Columbus day and so on.

Despite my screen name (which is tongue in cheek) I am pretty neutral in regards to the Civil War and choose to read and admire brave individuals in blue and gray because I've visited the places they bled and acknowledge the sacrifice and tragedy of the war.

I will also say that I am as equally against any Southerner (like in Richmond) that would protest the putting up of a Lincoln statue or a union monument.

YH

I find such a position as that bumper sticker appalling coming from a conservative.

Indeed many of those descendants of the Confederates are the very voters that ensured the rise of modern conservatism. Without Southerners how many elections would the Republicans win? Would there have been a Reagan or a Bush?

I am no neo-confederate but I do support the historic display of the Confederate flag. Perhaps these people's motives aren't the best...but I find offensive the wanton hatred of the history of the South by many conservatives. The south, esp. in the military has long since proven it's loyalty to the USA.

I wonder in regards to your "you lost get over it" mentality...

Do you make a habit of saying such a statement at the Vietnam Memorial?

Do you have a bumper sticker with such a comment when you drive through an Indian reservation?

Whether the people who put up the flag had good or bad motivations is beside the point. The enemies of this I-65 flag do not care about history. They care about the all mighty lock step liberalism. Whatever you feelings about the years 1861-1865, I think conservatives should be united against leftist PC hate groups.

YH

Maybe Southerners will vote as a bloc.

Hands down George Washington....First in war, first in peace and still first in the hearts of his countrymen 225 years later (let's hope). All the libs will split between King and Lincoln. I'm not bashing them two per se, but that's how it'll be.

Loved Washington ever since I played him in the 4th grade for a school report after visiting Yorktown.

I live in York County (home to a certain Washington victory), Virginia. You can't go wrong with a Virginian.

There were and are many great Americans but only one who if he didn't live would mean there would be no America in the first place.

You don't put talk show hosts on the dollar bill.

The worst of the top 25 was Lance Armstrong, not because he isn't a decent guy, but because he is sponsored by the Discovery Channel and I smelled a shameless plug...ie "Lance Armstrong Week on the Discovery Channel".

YH

Look, I have the feeling we are going to have another one of these North versus South fights again on FR. Let's get back to the point.

The Confederate Battle Flag like any flag or any symbol can have many meanings. Obviously that flag has been used by racist groups in the South, esp. in the Civil Rights era.

BUT, it is not ALWAYS racist, and I'd say that the vast majority of the time it is flown it does not have racist overtones intended by the flyer.

Speaking of my native Virginia, most of the time you see the flag is at museums or by Civil War reenactors, most of whom are just history buffs. Even more often the flag is simply a way of saying I'm from the South.

I've usually seen it more as a racist intent when it is flown in Northern states such as Pennsylvania and upstate New York. I've had relatives from up there who've held such nasty opinions and I find it embarrassing and offensive as a Southerner that they would expect me to automatically agree with such beliefs.

In the South whites and blacks TODAY get along better than in other regions of the US. Obviously things were rough 40 or 50 years ago but I'm speaking of my generation.

All southern whites grow up with and among black southerners. In no other region of the US do blacks and whites share so much in common culturally from food, sport, music, and literature African and Anglo-Celtic cultures are inseparable here.

What many in the north may not have witnessed is that there is a new black southern identity going on. I'm no hip-hop fan but turn on the TV and you see southern artists rapping about grits and souped up trucks and such. That didn't happen 15 years ago.

More and more blacks are returning to live in the South because it is their cultural homeland. It's simply home.
In the past blacks were embarrassed of their southern roots as they fled to South Side Chicago or Harlem. Now they are proud to be southern.

I think these two Southern black ladies are in effect, perhaps even subconsciously stating "I'm southern, I'm a southern belle so I'm wearing a rebel bikini".

If black southerners use the Rebel emblem for themselves its a power statement. It's not ignorant, it's smart. It's saying "I'm southern too, I am a part of this region as much as anyone else".

Just like the liberal white Yankees, the liberal black NAACP Yankees just don't get it. The south is no longer poor, backward or segregated. We've had a rough past black and white, but we're here, we've always been here and now we're going to work together.

Warmest Regards,

YH

"His life was gentle, and the elements so mixed in him that Nature might stand up and say to all the world, this was a man"
Jul.Caesar, Act v, Sc.5

To all,

This has come as the greatest of shocks. I knew he was unwell but thought he might have been getting better. I then began to get worried when I hadn't heard from him in awhile and now this.

We last emailed about four weeks ago and were planning to meet up for lunch. We had emailed and often FReeped one another barbs regarding history....one of his replies to me was quoted here. I never met a better match to my historic arguments than him.

He was most gracious and kind to me when my father Sultan88 passed away this summer. We continued emailing. When I moved to Williamsburg we met for a three hour lunch and were on the verge of becomming fast friends.

This is very very sad. I plan to make a donation as large as I can to help his children. I soon hope to see his name on the memorial wall in honor of a true Virginian, a scholar and a gentleman.

God's enternal blessings upon his family.

Farewell my FRiend. A truer Virginian I have never met than thee.

YH

I just got back from a museum trip from Winchester. I can report that I saw several Potts signs posted along US 17 and US 50. One by a scenic mountain view read "Thank you Senator Potts for this beautiful view". Very self serving and typical of his character that that sign was put up by his own campaign team.

I think him more dangerous than some of you. Having lived for 2.5 years in Loudoun County I see his danger. Despite his pomposity he is popular with the NOVA moderate-liberal Republicans. Potts has acted very much the demagogue on the "Development" issue. If he can split a fraction of the NOVA GOP vote he can do real damage.

I see the hand of Big John at play....(Warner is from Middleburg).

The YH

I'm replying to myself just to clarify that if you read my previous post it might sound as if I think New Orleans was in the Rev War. I forgot to add a sentence saying...Before 1812 as early as the Rev War there were even blacks serving....etc.

You are right about the New Orleans Native Guard having served in the Battle of New Orleans. Most of them were wealthy mixed race Creoles and had a long track record of war service.

There were in fact many black soldiers in the Revolutionary War. Rhode Island for example had many black soldiers serving in their units. It is estimated that 15% of all of the American soldiers in Washington's Army were black by 1781.

As for the Native Guards, they were turned down for Confederate Service in 1862 and switched allegiance to the Union cause. There were blacks that attempted to join the CSA but were turned down.

To their credit Lee and Cleburne wished to use black troops. Moderates had suffiencenlty taken enough control of the Richmond government to allow Lee to raise two black regiments but they were in no major battles (April 1865 was too late for their service).

I assume that there were an unknown number of blacks, light skinned etc. who "passed" as white and served the CSA. Many blacks also served in uniform as orderlies. And it is not a myth to say that from time to time a slave picked up a rifle to defend their home. Official black service was denied however repeatedly by the Richmond Government.

There were many in the South that wished to arm slaves but they were shouted down by the "fire-eaters". The big difference between the Rev War or even 1812 and the Civil War were events such as Nat Turner and John Brown. People feared arming blacks....north and south.

That being said, I always defend the right of Southerners to defend their ancestors' service. It would have been great if the South had been able to free blacks to fight for the CSA. But the people who started the CSA had no intention of doing so. The moderates like Lee and Cleburne were more honorable and more representative of the best of the South. Sad to say they didn't get their way.

Just my little voice again saying to respect both our southern and northern heroes.

YH

You represent the real people of Massachusetts, that terd who wrote in the UMASS paper does not.

I have met many wonderful people from Massachusetts that represent the true spirit of the province of Paul Revere, John Adams and the brave Minutemen.

To me people who have such leftist anarchist beliefs as that student lose all claims to state and American citizenship, at least spiritually. If you hate America you aren't an American no matter where you're born.

These left wing goons can not be debated with, they need shouted down. I'd prefer smacking them but unlike the leftist vandalizer in question I respect the law.

I feel sorry for people who live in very lib areas. I have yet to hear of someone pulling off a yellow ribbon in Virginia. Chances are 1 in 4 that the person behind you is in the military over here. Good way to get beat down.

The YH

Yes, Chernow's book was good. He's an example of a good non Ph.D. historian.

I felt him a little too hard on TJ. 'Tis my only complaint. I review history books for my museum so I read 3 a week, mostly on my time not theirs.

To you and other posters, I'd continue by saying that many of the professors are overrated. I think I could write a good book in a year or two w/o a Ph.D. but its easier to get published with the university system.

I do promise all of you on FR that one day when I write books people will want to READ them not use them as doorstops.

I have a suspicion that when I get to the ivory tower folks that they will cringe when I plan to do a dissertation NOT on gender or racial studies.

Again that's why I love museum work. I get to work with real people and talk to real people about my love for history and not be shut up in a corner in some college castle hiding from the so called "unwashed masses". Every day I talk to the public I am encouraged by the many conservative museum visitors that are SELF TAUGHT and are patriotic and knowledgeable about our nation's past.

YH

No offense taken on the history major comment.

Like I said in Virginia history jobs are semi plentiful..in other states it is much harder to find museum work.

I graduated college in 2000. The longest I've been out of work since then is one week. I've worked in 5 different museums. Each promotion brings a little more pay.

I'm still single so 30K is plenty for me. Most of my money is wasted on my library collection ;)An MA is the museum field can bring 40k - 60K around here (if you are management/supervisory). To me that's decent enough.

Besides museum work you can either teach or become a lawyer. Most of my fellow history majors in school weren't too serious about the field. It is not for everyone.

YH

I was a history major as well. I am employed in the history field. I make a decent living. I pay all my bills and have enough left over to enjoy myself.

You shouldn't major in history if you want to drive around in a Mercedes-Benz. I think there is nothing wrong with wealth. I hate socialists whiny babies. I know my field doesn't pay much (supply and demand folks). If I want more money then I shall change careers. Liberal Arts careers take a certain economic sacrifice. Too many people just major in those fields to "get through" and then are surprised they don't make 6 figure salaries.

It's not too hard to get a museum job in Virginia. The degree matters, but having interned in college opened more doors for future employment.

I think the problem here is that most people go to college just to get a high paying job. I think we need more trade and technical schools for those people. To me a BA in a Liberal Arts degree should teach one a broad variety of subjects. I got through on a academic scholarship, but college in this sense is more of a luxury than necessity. Like in early America, when having a classical education was a finishing school for the mind. In my case I willingly chose a history career. I don't regret it. College made me more conservative not less. Challenging professors made my arguments stronger.

In the history field one must rely on evidence and facts to make good arguments. I had zero problems with my liberal history profs but ran into a brick wall with the English and Philosophy profs. History has more hard science to it than the average humanity.

I am debating whether to go for a Ph.D. or not. A part of me enjoys the practical side of a public history career. Another part of me wishes to infiltrate the university system. We need more conservatives willing to become professors. In a sense we need an alternative university system much like we have an alternative to the MSM.

In my case I wish to write books one day praising our Founders and thus our country. To do so, at least with a degree of credibility sad as the system is, you need that membership card (the Ph.D.). Very few good historians (there are some) are without it.

I fully understand the views of most of the posters. There are too many "pot smokers" and not enough serious scholars these days to make one be able to justify the classic liberal arts college. I wish we could remove these Ward Churchill b*stards and hippie student trash so we could reform college back to the standards of yesterday.

YH

You would also have to admit that part of the problem was with the radical abolitionists as well. And by radical I mean William Lloyd Garrison's denunciation and burning of the Constitution and the terrorist actions of John Brown.

I think Brown's actions pushed more moderate southerners over the edge to the secession camp. I can not see Virginia seceding had it not been for Brown's raid.

I've always thought that from a purely technical sense the Southern secession and American rebellion from Britain to be the same...technically. What I mean is might makes right, it's a revolution if you win and a rebellion if you lose. I think the South's leaders wasted secession for stupid reasons, to please the radical slaveowners.

In fact Lincoln's election was not a takeover of the south as the south held 50% of the Senate's power and controlled the judiciary. The south could have kept slavery going simply by blocking Lincoln and filibustering.

Real blame needs to go to Buchanan for doing nothing in Dec 1861. Had he acted immediately as Andrew Jackson had against South Carolina in the 1830's the crisis could have been averted.

Lincoln also fails horribly in his miscalculation of the upper south's intentions. Seward rebuffed a Virginia peace delegation and ignored warnings in regards to Ft. Sumpter. So with the Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas pullout after Sumpter the CSA doubled in size, manpower and strength.

The real failure of the South's independence movement are threefold...

1) lack of political talent....no Jefferson inspired Declaration, no Franklin diplomacy...squabbling governors and a weak ineffective president (Davis)
2) no foreign recognition....Gladstone's British govt might have been in 1862 had CSS Trent been sank and not seized with diplomats.
3) changing times...the British fail to hold the American interior in 1775-1781 but with rail and engineering technology the Union and hold and seize interior ground away from traditional supply lines.

Since the south failed on these three points we'll have no way of ever knowing if their cause would have reformed, nationalized and ended slavery...(would Lee have been another G.Washington?) much as how the USA prevented anarchy and reigned in its idealistic extremism through the constitution in 1787.

I hold out that it was possible (read Emory Thomas: The Confederate Nation for a scholarly not neo-confed take on this).

While I know I would have found myself opposing him in 1861, I think Lincoln did what he had to in his position, was a poetic writer and personally honorable.

Am I alone thinking it well to honor a Lincoln and a Lee? Well I'm the guy who likes both Jefferson and Hamilton. go figure.

Tex,

You're right in hinting how the slavery issue itself shouldn't wash away everything the United States government did in response to secession.

We could plausibly argue that slavery would have ended much sooner had the British won the War of American Independence. It would of had to have ended sooner or later if the Confederate States been victorious. Hard to say when. Most likely by the 1880's if you look at Brazil and Cuba doing same.

On the other hand would the slavery issue have eventually pitted the upper South versus the deep South? I could see that too. By the end of 1864-65 the Virginians and North Carolinian urban moderates had eliminated the fire-eating planters in government. The Deep South states resented the Richmond government and Virginia control of the Army/tactics.
So we could make the counter argument that secession would of had to stop somewhere.

Basically the way I've come to see it after many arguments in my day...

1) radical pro slavery and radical abolitionists created a political crisis in the mid 19th century
2) that crisis resolved around the issue of slavery
3) no one had the solution so secession became a crisis
4) the secession crisis caused the war
5) moderates both north and south had to make a hard choice
6) these moderates tended to be more loyal to their cause, more steadfast, and heroic than the radicals were
7) terrible tragedy that so many died
8) fascinating battles and tactics, great geniuses
9) slavery ended which had to happen, but some of the union's tactics resulted in longstanding hatred of blacks and resentment.
10) reconstruction was mishandled and caused more problems than the war itself.
11) although Lincoln was not perfect his assasination made things 100 x worse for the south, he would have been more lenient
12) let both yanks and rebs have their respective heroes and not refight the war.

YH

Wonderful tribute Mud thank you,

I'm back now and ready to hit the libs hard. New posts, new tagline and new bio. I am Williamsburg based now. If we can find 'em HenryLeeII (who I've since met in person) and I might try to get a little group started on the Peninsula. We'll see.

THE YH

Hey Phosgood, maybe Charles First will dust off his old manifesto about that "Friendly Planet" that will rescue us. Sounds like these gloom and doom libs could use a little reassuring.

BTW since when does having a few RINOs from Maine on board constitute a diverse group of people?

YH