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Sorry. No more fingernails left. Keep me in your prayers, ok.

shoot em all and let God sort em out

Go for the Gold, Primates!!

Let's hope our beleagured brethren here in the USA get the same kind of support.

It's deja vu all over again, folks:

"A spokesman for the Canadian Church said, however, that the motion was merely to **recognise the status quo** in Canada, rather than make a final ruling on the morality of homosexuality.

"Whatever we do to try to face our reality here is likely to cause some stress within the Communion," said Canon Eric Beresford. "But I hope we can attempt to do it in a way that minimises that."

If anyone has the time and the inclination, please read my comment on the ELCA situation.

Don't even vote -- don't worry your poor little head about these things.

Just do whatever you d*** well please and devil take the hindmost.

Am I nuts, or is the "Schism" already a done deal? Primates have already declared broken Communion. The Lambeth Commission was not supposed to make some new policy, but to try to create a divorce settlement that avoided the worst messiness.

The party's over, my friend. It only remains to decide where you actually stand -- with Christ and His Holy Scriptures or against them.

As for me and my house -- -- we will serve the Lord.

I lived in a friend's basement play room while entering the ordination process and waiting for the go-ahead to start seminary. I can do it again if I have to. My bishop has my full support, but just how far can we all go?

Back in the 1960s the hippies had a saying:

NOT to decide IS to decide.

Exactly.

Just create a fait accompli and then say, "Oh. Will you look at that. '*This practice is (already) a recognized part of our common life*'"

Sound familiar?

Here is the clincher quote:

"...at this time in the life of our church our discernment continues to unfold and leaves us at different places. Perhaps we need to find a way not to vote that is not a de-facto victory for the status quo, but acknowledges and allows us to be at different places and for our church life to continue its unfolding."

Keep on evolving, everybody. Keep on unfolding. Just keep those wagons rolling -- that must be the Promised Land over there somewhere. We are "richly diverse;" there are so many differing perspectives -- and *they ALL get to be valid, and we are ALL just going to live with that.*

Is the whole world deaf, dumb and blind?

I can only think that Our Lord is leaving His Church to work out the choices we have been making. He has withdrawn the Counselor from those who do not wish to submit to Him, and so they will make their choices out of their own understanding.

Woe to him who leans on his own understanding instead of trusting in the Lord.

Every choice has its consequences, and those cannot just be ignored.

Sorry, dangus, but the Formal Official name of the "Anglican" Church in Ireland is: The Church of Ireland.

When people in Ireland say, "I am going to Church" they mean they are going to C of I. If they are going to a Roman Catholic sacred building, they say, "I am going to Chapel." If you say "Church" you mean C of I.

And PLEASE, members of the C of I are NOT in any way shape or form "Limeys." They are not English; they are not "Sassenagh." They are Irish people or "British/Irish."

I know this from people I have spent time with who are both Irish Roman Catholics and C of I members.

Erin Go Bragh and all that.

Ping or Bump or whatever it is.

I insist on my original point: The Germany which created the Holocaust was a thoroughly POST-Christian country. At best, they were hyper-Enlightenment types who had no use for religion. At worst, they were rank occultists. The rest of Europe which colluded in the process were at best nominal Christians who just didn't care about Christian Faith or anything other than their own personal advantage.

Your idea is very "nice" and neat: if you have a wrong theological view in regard to the place of the Jewish people, you will not value or stand by them. However, like all ideas which are too neat and tidy, this one misses so many other dimensions (as ahadams has so aptly pointed out) that it really doesn't account for anything genuinely true or useful. It also places a burden of blame on one group among our brethren which does not at all build up the Body of Christ.

AND -- it lends itself strongly to the complete misconception of what the underpinnings of the Holocaust were: a deep and violent hatred for God, His People, His Word and His Church. This point is important -- please at least ponder it.

The Nazis were responsible for the Holocaust.

The Nazis were post-Christians -- apostates -- genuinely avowed Pagans. They followed a religion of Norse gods and mythologies. The Nazi Party was founded by people involved in anti-Christian occult societies such as the Vril and the Thule. I have researched this stuff personally and thoroughly, and I know very well whereof I speak.

They were not any kind of Christian at all.

The Big Lie is that Christians of any sort, of any denomination, were in any way responsible for what the Third Reich did. True Christians of ALL denominations helped our Jewish brethren any way they could, often at the cost of their lives. These included Reformed such as the Ten Boom family and their underground network and Roman Catholics, such as the Franciscans of Assisi who hid and smuggled out thousands of Jews.

The game of the Anti-Christian, anti-Jewish Leftists is always divide and conquer -- don't help them win their game.

If you want any documentation on any of this, I am able and happy to provide it.

Instead of taking pot-shots at each other concerning the particularities of our various church communities, could we maybe get back to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Our Lord:

The Kingdom of God is at hand -- repent and believe the Good News!!!

I was very impressed with similar reports of very cordial meetings of other church leaders with the ABC until it became clear that he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

He is simply trying to keep everyone on the reservation. Charm is not substance.

Lay this report up next to the one that said that Bp Griswold was happily celebrating Eucharist in Canterbury Cathedral yesterday morning.

Can't we all just get along? Can't we?

Well, Rodney, no we can't. Because getting along means giving in to immorality and apostasy. The big umbrella is gone in the hurricane, and all the Brit niceness in the world isn't going to get it back.

Does anyone know exactly what this "week long gathering" is? And what about the other Primates? Is everyone who declared impaired or even broken Communion just going to show up?

My understanding of what was formerly called the "Eames Commission" and is now being called the "Lambeth Commission" (we are SO careful with nomenclature) is that their mandate was to set out HOW to organize the split in the best way possible. If they are still trying to undo it, then they are utterly doomed to failure. They will NOT in any discipline "one of their own" -- i.e. require any sort of admission of guilt or change of behavior in ECUSA.

We are just marking time until October and then, Goodbye Communion. So many people just don't seem to be able to take that fact in.

Stack the deck against the orthodox and then wonder why "*They* have a problem." Same old same old

The thing I love most is the way that all the really important resolutions get passed: Resolved that the Parliament of Southwest Guhwangistan must immediately stop the export of yak hides --

"Increase aid to Haiti?" Does that mean the US Congress? Or that they are supporting the deployment of the Marines?

Or might it mean that they themselves are going to send their own money to Haitian people?

Get them deckchairs all lined up, boys.

Sheeesh.

The definitive Councils and the Fathers of the Church unanimously declared that:

Iconoclasm is Heresy!

Why? Because once God becomes incarnate in the divine Person of Jesus Christ, the perfect image of God in Man is restored, and one not only can but must take that image as The Way the Truth and the Life.

"They shall LOOK on Him Whom they have pierced."

Your diatribe sounds faithful on the surface, but lacks all understanding of Holy Tradition or the true intention of Holy Scripture.

How about this for a headline:

JESUS FINDS FAULT WITH SO-CALLED SCHOLARS

Starting with Crossan who is nothing but an apostate with a chip on his shoulder.

This is not a textbook lesson, it is a genuine spiritual experience. How about just giving thanks for the overwhelming love God has for us.

See the movie!

This is the best review of the movie I have seen anywhere.

We had services at noon and 7pm today; I was able to see the movie in between the two services.

As the author above said, it is profoundly Eucharistic: Mel has woven the Last Supper together with the actions of the Passion in a very similar manner to the way that old Catholic devotional books used to do. (We use those, too). As Pilate washes his hands, Jesus pictures the washing of hands at the Seder meal. When he lies on the pavement after the scourging (totally soul-harrowing) he looks at the feet of the soldiers and pictures washing the feet of His disciples.

But after watching the breaking of the bread at the Last Supper intermixed with the scenes on the Cross-- I have to tell you, I will never say Mass the same way ever again. This Body and Blood given for us in such an overwhelming way -- He makes His offering to the Father through our hands. I have always believed and known this, but the connection has taken on a dimension beyond. It will be hard to hold that bread and say those words without going to pieces altogether.

The other thing about the movie is how Marian it is. You go through the whole thing at the side of Mary with John and Magdalene. You see a lot of the action through her eyes. She goes every step of the way of the cross and really suffers with Him. At the end, she holds her Son's dead Body and looks straight into the camera and right through into the core of your own soul. Her gesture seems to offer Him to you personally.

Only someone with a heart for God could have directed this movie. This was not some theatrical piece of drama; it is a genuine spiritual experience. The actors made me feel as though I was looking through a window in time; I forgot that I was looking at a production and felt that I was there. Jim Caviezel gives us a truly manly Jesus, very real, and conveys so much of His spirit. You could see at times that Jim must have been praying through the scene. At times you feel as though you are looking at the Face from the Shroud of Turin.

One of the best things was a flashback in which Jesus says, "No one takes My life from Me, I lay it down of My own accord." So important to make that clear to everyone.

See this movie! It is a meditation on the Passion of Our Lord like nothing anyone could imagine. I am going to go back and bring as many people as I can. I am thinking about maybe buying tickets and giving them out at random in the Mall where our local theater is.

Yes, the brutality is very hard to take -- it should be! But all it does is increase our love for Him.

We have a hymn in our hymnal:

My song is Love unknown; my Savior's love to me. Love to the loveless shown that they might lovely be. But who am I ... that for my sake ...my Lord should take frail flesh and die?

. . . . . . .

Here might I stay and sing no story so divine: never was love, dear King, never was grief like thine. This is my friend... in whose sweet praise... I all my days could gladly spend.

See the movie.

OK.

So now Fr. Minkler has *made plans* to talk to a close friend.

Folks, I have to know a little about how suicidal thoughts and plans function as part of my work so that I can spot potential deaths. People very often brood for a while before making up their minds. They rarely do such a final thing on the spur of the moment. They plan how they will carry the idea out in concrete terms. And they isolate themselves from those who could help them.

Minkler was reaching out to people. He was connecting with friends and other people interested in the case -- he was not isolating himself into a despairing place. He had plans for a time that would have been after his death.

I just don't believe that this is a man who killed himself. I know I may be wrong, but my gut doesn't buy it.

Good points, all.

Perhaps someone with inside contact with Hubbard &/or people connected with his office took it upon himself to take care of business.

It will be extremely difficult to get to the bottom of this one. We may never know what really happened.

Thanks for the really interesting story, NYer. Excellent point. I appreciate it that you shared it with us.

I continue to be fascinated by this whole thing, though entirely saddened.

The thing that is getting lost in all these details: it is pretty well proven that Fr. Minkler DID write the letter. It is also clear that the bishop and chancery say that he signed the statement that he did NOT write the letter.

The bishop's office therefore required a priest to create a legal document that was a total lie intended to cover up the problem.

For that *alone*, Hubbard should resign. It stinks.

There are a lot of loose ends in this thing. But I still have a feeling that Fr. Minkler didn't just coolly decide to take his own life. Maybe one of the "sisterhood" panicked and tried to get Fr. Minkler out of the way.

Like I said -- we may never know.

Meanwhile -- pray for the Church -- all of it.

We still have no idea what the note said.

Also, if it was typed -- or even hand written -- it may also have been faked and planted.

I watch too much "Monk."

Might not have been Hubbard.

There are a whole lot of "interested third party" types out there.

The lavender mafia was a lot safer 5 years ago, functioning with a large chunk of impunity. Just recently, the Vatican starting really cracking down on sexual acting out by clergy. There had been a kind of "don't ask; don't tell" thing going on. Now, celibacy is sternly defined as NO sexulal activity of *any* kind whatsoever.

Tell me, how would you like eating cold oatmeal at 4:30 in the morning in a Trappist abbey for an undetermined number of years?

"Juice O'Brien" ROTFLOL

A true story. When I was about to go to seminary 12 years ago, *Bp John Shelby Spong* said: "Do not go to EDS; they are too liberal."

Yes, I had the great misfortune to pass through the Diocese of Newark. No, I did not sell out in any way. The Commission on Ministry, while vile and abusive, never asked me a single litmus question. I was among 2 or 3 token "heteros" ordained at the time to prove that they would still do that. Before I was ordained, the Bishop basically told me to get out of his diocese, I would not be able to take any parish in Newark. I left for happier locations the first chance I got.

There was also a faithful bishop I knew who was a co-ordainer. I am just enough of a bad Donatist for this to be very comforting to me.

But actually, SPONG! said, "EDS is over the top -- don't go there" (Like I might have even wanted to :-( yecch).

One of their other famous liturgies included a public burning of a stack of BCPs to protest its nasty uninclusive language.