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I didn't mean you personally. It was a reference to mystics. However, now I have received a message from Jim Robinson to remove my comments elsewhere. The forum is now all yours, all the time. Now you can present your gnostic Christianity without any fear of correction. So much for honest and open discussion, thanks a lot, on behalf of true bible believing Christians everywhere

if John is your favorite disciple, maybe you should read what he wrote

But the turning of the soul -- the tuning of the soul -- towards Christ in Love is a free human act, which a man may perform or not.

more unscriptual goofiness, totally against what Christ said:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is the view, of course, that human beings are saved by grace alone, that they really don't have to do anything but have faith in God; for Christ does all the work of salvation for us. Effort ("works") from the human side counts for exactly nothing.

Who's view is this, betty? Could it be... the biblical view?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10

In that case, it seems to me that suffering would be perfectly pointless and gratuitous, too.

Does that then include Christ's suffering? Was it then pointless and gratuitous?

more than you'd think, see here

http://www.strangescience.net

and let us not forget: There is no private interpretation of Scripture As GSHS(R) has pointed out for us, Scripture is interpreted by Scripture. Plato's daimon can't help you and no amount of rocking in your room, with your eyelids turned up twitching, helps either

and Fr is not a church

and every biblical effort is sought to restore them before drastic measures are taken

Mathematics cannot give proof of any such thing. Mathematics is only a tool, the proof lies in living things and mathematics cannot provide such proof. All mathematics is based on the principle of equality and apples and oranges are not equal.

In the end, mathematics is just opinion

LOL! Yeah, no basis whatsoever to place a clavicle in the shoulder, and rib in the rib cage, or to a assume that the ball on a femur fits into the socket on a pelvis.

maybe not as easy as it seems, wasn't there a dinosaur in the Chicago museum that had its butt where its head should be for years before someone more knowledgeable visited and pointed it out to them....

No one knows the mind of God, or what forms of worship are acceptable in His sight. To say otherwise is to "reduce" Him to a partisan of our own particular persuasion, or creed. Which is a violation of His absolute Sovereignty.

This statement is beyond amazing! He has revealed in His Word, and through Jesus Christ in the New Testament, the forms of worship that are acceptable to Him. But of course, you discount the revealed Word of God as well as the revealed nature of Christ, our exemplar, preferring your own forms of communion, meditating on philosophers and writings of mystics. How is what you do any different than paganism? And I'm not being "provacative". I'd really like to know

You and I have had some very interesting disagreements, and you have certainly tried and successfully provoked me. (Not easy to do.) For that I thank you. At least you don't tell me how stupid I am then assure me your are praying for me.

well that's the job of JesseShurun, you know I am just a bad parable, not even real!

As for praying for others when not asked to, I'm with you: first of all, I don't need them and second of all, I don't know who it is they are praying to, and best to leave me out of it

But I am even more stupid than that. I even thought pointing out the false amalgam of pagan philosophy with the teaching Scripure was appropriate. It is called synchretism

one thing Hank is not, is stupid. You have nailed it, Hank, and holding up and worshipping philosophers and declaring any of them, divine sparkles included in the package, in the same mold as Jesus, is ludicrous for a Christian to be doing. For a gnostic mystic to be doing, or a Hindu or a Buddhist, or a pagan, perfectly acceptable

First of all, I wouldn't classify this discussion as "bickering". We are contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints, and for me anyway, it is serious business. Some people hold themselves up here on FR as paragons of Christian virtue, quoting Scripture willy-nilly as it suits their purposes. Usually their purposes are to ululate, obfuscate and then depart the gate. Any challenge to them is labeled deliberate "provocation". It's like going hunting with an Irish setter. The thing runs all over the place, easily distracted.

Once again, for your source to support your Gnostic argument, you go to uninspired text, written by a mystic. That text is worthless, it is one person's half-baked idea of "finding God". Per Judaism and Christianity, it is not possible for anyone to "find God". That was the whole reason for the Incarnation. God comes to find man.

When someone makes an appearance on an unrelated thread and invites the cast over to share their viewpoints on another one, they should not say "all viewpoints are welcome", if it's not true, and especially when one has to go to the moderator when they are found to be theologically bankrupt. My Pa always said, "Don't write checks you can't cash".

well before I call it a night, let me just direct you to a re-reading of Plato's Phaedo, in which he says that the soul saves itself through Philosophy never giving any credit to the gods or to the Supreme God which is completely impersonal to men. Furthermore, if the soul fails to save itself, it re-incarnates into animals and birds and what have you-- all very Eastern religious ideas, especially Hinduism and Buddhism.

He had the idea of a soul as separate from the body and that it had an existence after death, but other than that, he had nothing even remotely Christian about him. But when you come to an understanding of the bible, you realize that he had the gifts that the Lord gave him, but he was not privy to the plan of salvation, nor was he a forerunner of the One True Savior.

ping to above

you are very wrong about that. The Pymander of Hermes was said to have been the source of inspiration for Zoroaster, Hebrew Cabala, and for Pythagorus (581-497 B.C.) as well as Plato. Gnostic spirituality combined pagan monistic Hinduism (the view that all reality is one unitary organic whole with no independent parts), with another key element, Egyptian goddess magic.

Furthermore, Gnosticism in the modern so-called Christian churches is sympathetic to the theory of evolution, so now it's all beginning to make sense to me

you and the unmentionable one are espousing Gnosticism and representing it here on this thread as Christianity. I'm sorry but I will have to take issue with that. If you want to report me to the moderator, go ahead. As a bible believing Christian I cannot stand by and let this go unremarked upon. Thank you

That is to say, ensouled men have a spark of the divine built into them.

well betty, I hate to break it to you, but this is not biblically supported. It is though, Gnosticism, pure and simple.

maybe I'm wrong but I bet Jesuits are well fed, warm, never missed a meal in their lives, take showers, get medical care, buy books, candy and smoke cigars over fine brandy by the fireside. If so, and they begrudge a little dog or cat the same, then they can kma. If not, nevermind