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My wife (ethnic Chinese from Thailand) and I lived in Sichuan, PRC for three years from 2007 to 2010. There were many Chinese Christians we met during those three years and also during our trips to China that began in 1998. The Chinese Christians are serious Christians (persecution does that to a person) and will never be defeated by government hacks. There are too many and too diverse with about 80% worshipping in illegal house churches. Believe the number of active Christians (and I mean ACTIVE) is close to 300 million per our Christian friends.

The Chinese art you showed reminded my of a Christian traditional watercolor artist that taught my wife his art form. His Christian silk scrolls were exactly as you have depicted. Wonderful and very traditional Chinese. Thanks for sharing.

Just spent 20 days in Malaysia (Penang, KL and Borneo). The Chinese in those places are rocking but there are huge problems. We saw lots of help wanted signs everywhere, especially in the Malls. One restaurant owner who has a small restaurant in a Mall in Kuching and a huge restaurant in the city center stated he could not find good help among the Malays. The government subsidizes the Malays as Muslims and they suck as employees. This is a huge problem in Malaysia where the locals are subsidized by the Chinese and Indians hard earned tax dollars. No way would I ever invest in such a place unless it was with the Chinese population whom we fell in love with. Great hard working people.

Can’t one say that about anyone who dare disagree with one’s own “judgement?” I did not say I was right, I simply shared that which I have learned over a lifetime of research, pray and human understanding. If you think that is not good enough for you to make a decision, well, you have the right to base your opinions on whatever you choose. No argument from me.

Actually, I do not advocate anything, just trying to understand for myself concerning the concept of women in the ministry. I used to hold to the traditional concept of males only but . . . well, I would have no trouble attending a service where women preach and hold positions of authority.

I have come a long way since my ordination one hundred years or so ago :-)

Singing to the choir and doing a good job of it.

As stated it remains controversial except for the fact that there is no Junia in Greek for a male. It is a female name only, but then that does not change the controversy, does it?

Wonderfully written and with an obvious Christian spirit. As is often the case of many evangelicals and conservative Christians, I was taught that the Catholic church was . . . . (you can supply whatever bad word you want). As I matured in Christ and observed with mature eyes, I realized that the people are the church and not the building or the organization running the building. We all share the same salvation in Christ.

I now have a new found respect for the Catholic Church as an institution as it stands against many of the things so terribly wrong in America today. The murder of our most innocent humans and the secular approach to so many Important things in our society. The Catholic Church’s clear stand on abortion and clear stand against homosexuality brings joy to my heart as many a liberal church have fallen for the lies and deception of human secularism. Standing tall for Christianity when so many have thrown in the towel is inspiring.

As to Paul’s admonitions to the Corinthians about the place of women in the Christian society, many scholars believe that the women, having found true freedom in this new Christian society, were pushing the bounds of this freedom in such a way that was detrimental to the growth and well being of the church. The culture of the society in Corinth was metropolitan but most definitely a man’s world where women were either looked upon a chattel or at best second class citizens. To see these Christian women enjoying the same freedom as their male counterparts caused too many problems and probably made them some very powerful hostile enemies. Makes sense to me. Would Paul write the same to churches in a country like the US where women are equal in all respects? Who knows.

Thank you for your post, it did my heart good.

Back to the issue at hand - early church leaders considered the act of homosexuality to be sinful. The Scriptures have a lot to say about such sins and one would have to be a pretzel to rationalize what is stated. I see many liberal Christian ministers pretzelizing the Scriptures. Most people I know who take their Christian faith seriously are sickened by this whole mess the country is now in.

That is an interesting interpretation but then why would it be a controversy if such were correct?

Some argue that Junia was a male while acknowledging him as an apostle. No such male name known in Greek so if only acknowledged by the apostles, why make him into a male? Do believe she is actually called an apostle in the Greek, otherwise, no controversy among the church historians. All the sources I found acknowledge Junia’s apostleship. Interesting though, isn’t it.

Not to worry as it will continue as a controversy among Greek and Church historians alike for years to come. Did not mean to argue, just sayin . .

Spiritual equality.

That is why they call us protestants because we do not buy into the Catholic doctrines established by man. These doctrines have absolutely nothing to do with my salvation nor my personal relationship with Christ.

Not sure who it was on this forum, but someone stated the same thing. It was about six months ago or so. I spend a good two weeks going through the scriptures and historical background of the issue.

Like you, I was raised with the same concepts and teachings for most of my life. I even was ordained as a minister but found it was not my calling. It is a controversy (did not seem to be in the early church where women were actually preachers spreading the word starting from the day of Pentecost). It does not appear to be a problem until the actual organization of the church and the various councils gathered to put some order in the movement (we all know the Council of Nicea). Then (apparently because the church leaders were from cultures that held women in low regard) the concept we were taught was implemented. My traditional upbringing and experiences is with the Restoration Movement in the US prior to the Civil War. The movement pretty much rejects the various councils and works to restore the church to what one finds in the early churches. The Holy Tradition that Christ . . . did not become the HOLY TRADITION until implemented by one of the councils (as per the teachings of the Restoration Movement of Campbell, Stone and others).

If one reads the Scriptures, one finds that the early church members met on the first day of the week and broke bread in remembrance of Christ’s Last Supper. The Christian Jews also attended the Sabbath Services on Saturday as well. No HOLY WRIT or show of great celebration - just met together and humbly carried out the traditions you speak of with little fanfare.

The participation in any “ritual” almost makes the concept meaningless and the ritual taking the place of the meaning (not meant to be argumentative just practical). The all-men ministers was very much part of the tradition of the Restoration Movement but probably as a tradition and not Biblical. When one says we are all equal spiritually, one really cannot say “equal except . . “ We either are or we are not. As Christians we share in the spiritual feast of our Lord without exceptions. That is the final personal argument that changed my mind along with those two weeks of intense research. Junia was an apostle with all that this term implies. Apostles carried out all the leadership functions without exception prior to any council or writ saying who could and who could not. Phoebe was a deaconess with everything that term implies as well.

I came to his conclusion with much research, thought and prayer. It is controversial and IMHO, one may want to be so positive in one’s belief on such controversial and none salvation related issues. I have changed my mind on a lot of the traditions and customs I was taught and believed over the years. Of course, I find it interesting that so many of the “liberal Christian congregations” are losing huge numbers of their members and the ministers cannot seem to figure out why. See http://dmergent.org/ for a good example of the liberal Christian view.

I am sickened by much of what some of these ministers write in regard to homosexuality and other things and their rationalization of what the Scriptures actually teach. Why would anyone attend such an organization when they can just join the local golf club or other social organization and get the same hugs and pats on the head. I think we both know why they are losing membership - they have ceased to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Just saying there is a valid argument to be made on the issue.

Not to be too argumentative but . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia

Junia in Romans is called an apostle by Paul and she was most definitely female. Do a little research on your own remembering that there are no male nor female in Christ. We Christians are all equal in all aspects of what that means.

Please do not take this as an argument one way or the other. I come from a very traditional and evangelical background but . . . well check it out as it is controversial.

While serving in the Pentagon during the First Gulf War, I saw both Cheney and Powell everyday walking to their morning briefings (I worked the mid-shift in the CCF). Cheney was always friendly to all of us whereas Powell was aloof and very professional. At the time, I admired Powell but a friend who worked with me absolutely despised him, calling him a phony warrior so political that he was willing to say or do anything to remain in power. Seems as if my friend nailed him perfectly.

While serving in the Pentagon during the First Gulf War, I saw both Cheney and Powell everyday walking to their morning briefings (I worked the mid-shift in the CCF). Cheney was always friendly to all of us whereas Powell was aloof and very professional. At the time, I admired Powell but a friend who worked with me absolutely despised him, calling him a phony warrior so political that he was willing to say or do anything to remain in power. Seems as if my friend nailed him perfectly.

A resource if one is interested (not that anyone would be) about the royal family of Thailand and names -http://www.catandnat.com/pages/content/thai-royal-titles#.UH2FfRwaCuQ

It is very complicated but also very much part of the patron-client system in Thailand.

Interesting article especially with the boyfriend, Sataporn Panomwan Na Ayuttaya. Basically it means Panomwan of the Ayuttaya family which usually means ties to the royal family. Never met a Thai with such a last name that was not heavily connected and not super wealthy. Maybe he is a black sheep of the Na Ayuttayas and escaped to the US. The royal family here is very large and diversified but they are still nobility.

Not sure about Samoans unless I wanted a great defensive line to demolish an opposing offense but I certainly agree with you about the Ghurkas and the Sikhs. They are some of the baddest soldiers on the planet. The Gurkas tend to be little guys while the Sikhs are usually big dudes. Good high-low kick butte weaponry!

Hey, I didn’t know that! Guess I will have to vote for .... the person who speaks English with his family but could still put Kerry to shame - Mitt Romney!

So he spent his Mormon Missionary time in France. That means only one thing - his French is flawless. Some of the best linguists we had in the AF were Mormons who did missionary work in their target language. I bet he makes John F. Kerry sound like a tourist trying to speak French. Doesn’t matter, I am still going to vote for . . . . the French speaking Mormon!

I know. The British colonialist used them as an ethnic group to help keep the British in power. Many people think they are ethnically different than their fellow Indians but they are not. Many Sikhs do have the ethnic, we are different, mentality as well, so you really were not that far off.