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Those republicans that didnt show up can skip it in the future too because their votes won't matter anymore.

Sadly true.

Hoss

Not us, man. We didn’t vote for this; but, if the stats are right, all of the “stay-at-home Republicans (most likely Trump haters) are the ones responsible for this. The voting percentages for Republicans was dismal from what I’ve read.

Northern VA, Eastern VA/Richmond... they run the Commonwealth. Those of us out in Red Southwest just bear the brunt of it.

I may be wrong. But, if not, it’s telling.

Hoss

Just another example of the vapidity of hollyweird. No imagination for anything new...

Re-boots are worthless.

Hoss

I’ve always been suspect of an “advanced” intelligence that can travel millions, billions, maybe even TRILLIONS of miles to get here — here of all places — and can’t land; they always seem to crash.

Hard time believing it. :D

Hoss

Did someone die?

Hoss

Once again, the CCC contradicts scripture. And once again, you refuse to see it:

"Hoss, the CCC's defines the word "Mediatrix" (969) as explicitly subordinate intercession (970: "depends entirely on" Christ's unique mediation, 1 Tim 2:5)—not authority over it."

Here's 1 Tim. 2:5-6 as a reminder...

"1 Timothy 2:5–7 [5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, [6] who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. (ESV)"

Note that it says "one mediator between God and men...." One mediator.

One.

Mediator.

As there is ONE mediator, that means that Christ is that mediator...and since there's one mediator, there is NO subordinate intercession required or needed; were there a subordinate mediator (or mediatrix), then there would not be ONE mediator between God and men; there would be two...or several...or for that matter MANY.

Mary does nothing. She can't hear prayer because she's not omniscient--she's not a subordinate mediatrix or subordinate anything for that matter.

It's not added authority -- in that you are correct. Christ does alone mediate and Mary does nothing in any subordinate way as claimed in the CCC.

Hoss

Nice try; no dice. CCC calls her Mediatrix and assigns her authority she doesn’t have.

Hoss

I apologize; I should have been more clear -- I used the ellipsis to save space assuming you would remember or at least reference what you said. Here's your full quote for clarity:

"Mary cooperates in the same way we cooperate by agreeing to let God’s grace save us - we have the free will to reject him, just like a drowning man can toss aside a lifesaving ring, but the actual saving is done by God."

My response was to debunk your statement above where you say, "...we cooperate by agreeing to let God's grace save us, just like a drowning man can toss aside a lifesaving ring...."

Now. All I was saying is that according to Ephesians, it says we're dead in trespasses and sins. How can a dead man reject a lifesaving ring according to your analogy? We aren't floating around waiting on a lifesaving ring; we're dead, on the bottom of the ocean. God reaches down, while we were yet dead, and brought us to life, out of the waves -- by His grace we're saved, not through anything WE do.

Better?

Hoss

errrr. no, it doesn’t.

Again, you're wrong. Have you ever read the CCC? Seems to me you haven't. I'm sure I'm wrong about that too, but, hey -- just calling it like I see it.

"969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”512"

Bold is mine.

Seems to me the CCC says she has a "saving office" which she did not lay aside...

Seems to me the CCC says she "continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . ."

Seems to me the CCC says what the CCC says. And it's in direct opposition to God's Word.

Hoss

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992/1997) never calls Mary “Mediatrix” or “Co-Mediator”.

Best check the latest editions...

"969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”512"

Bold is mine.

Appears to me you are wrong.

Hoss

The same way you use it to pretend we believe papal infallibility applies to anything other than Church dogma?

Nice Strawman. No reference made to papal infallibility by me! Just talking about the CCC...

Keep trying. Something *might* stick.

Horse

So you can use your magical powers to conjure up your own "meanings."

Hello Ad! Ad Hominem, right?

Sheesh. I was referring to the same illogical argument used by Roman Catholics to try to explain away poor arguments.

But, hey -- if it makes you feel better about yourself, ad hominem away. Doesn't bother me.

As I said: call me anything you want; just don't call me late for dinner.

Horse

it does not appear that Mary as co-redeemer will become Catholic dogma in the foreseeable future.

Thankfully.

Hoss

Mary cooperates the same way we cooperate by agreeing to let God....

Make that make sense in light of Ephesians 2:1-10 where God tells us we were dead in trespasses and sins. God then, through his mercy, makes us alive.

We weren't drowning; we were DEAD. Dead men don't allow anything. All God's work, his mercy, his love, his grace: he makes us alive and he gives us the faith we require to be saved. Just a reminder:

Eph. 2: 8-9:

"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Not our own doing. Not. Our. Own. Doing.

Hoss

If there is only ONE mediator between God and men, per 1 Tim. 2:5-6, how can there by ANY additional? There can be no “cooperative” or “subordinate” role for anyone — otherwise, there would be more than one mediator.

So, if you affirm that Christ is the SOLE mediator, what does Mary have anything to do with it? You either accept and believe scripture, or you don’t.

Hoss

Respectfully:

Re-read what I wrote. I was challenged to find something that wasn't specifically written but manifestly present and proven in that passage.

If I may use an explanation I've heard many Catholics use: just because the particular word isn't there, doesn't mean the meaning isn't there (i.e. Trinitarian language in The Bible e.g., etc.).

The CCC states that Mary has the gift of grace for salvation -- that's redemptive -- so that's implied. My comment was that this passage is no doubt where the term "Co-Redemptrix" originates.

Hoss (or Horse if you prefer. Call me anything you'd like: just don't call me late to supper;)

Pretty simple as to what happened in Virginia:

Three or four big counties — north and east — and all liberal. They controlled the vote by numbers, so the rest of us have to pay the price.

Virginia and other states need some sort of electoral college system for state elections. It’s gotten WAY out of control. Virginia is pretty much done.

Hoss

sigh... Okay. Here you go:

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”512

Bold is mine.

Now... you will no doubt disagree, however, it does not change fact: this is YOUR catechism. It teaches as point of fact, wrongly, that Mary has a "saving office" and provides "manifold intercession" thus giving the "gifts of eternal salvation."

This is no doubt where "Co-Redemptrix" originates -- it plainly states that she is providing gifts of eternal salvation -- redemption -- which she, a created creature cannot do.

And, finally, your catechism teaches that Mary is referred to as "Mediatrix." This, as we know, is the feminine of Mediator. However, scripture teaches something completely different:

1 Timothy 2:5-6

5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."

Again, bold is mine. How do you reconcile the absolute heresy being codified in, and taught by the catechism, as it stands in direct opposition to God's word? Your catechism teaches that Mary is a "Mediatrix" when God says there is only ONE mediator: Christ. How do you reconcile that?

So, there you have it. Mary is conflated with Christ in the ability to to provide "gifts of salvation" -- redeeming the lost -- in addition to being labeled as "Mediatrix" in direct opposition to the God's word.

Sounds like the ol' Pope might have done something right....

Horse

Try reading your catechism.

Hoss

BFL