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I don't have a problem with the "G-d created a mature universe" theory, but it doesn't make sense to me that the mature universe would have signs of ancient civilizations far older than the 5766 years allowable by biblical chronology. And if all of civilization was wiped out by the flood, how did the cave paintings get there? (People who believe in a 5766 year old universe - can you explain?)

That nasty Jew-controlled media... inventing a story to make palestinians look bad.

I'm not sure that taco bell is a great idea after not eating for 18 days. He needs to take things very, very easy with his digestive system.

I'm sad for them but their predicament is far overshadowed by the situation in New Orleans.

"Mitzva l'farsem osei mitzvah" - there is a mitzvah to publicize the names of those who do mitzvot. Is that what you're referring to?

I don't think PETA will be there. They're not planning any ritual slaughter demos that I'm aware of. ;-) Although there is a model kosher kitchen. Think PETA will go after it?

Jiffy Lube?

Yeah, they have to make it sound as "inclusive" as possible.

How old are these girls? It seems that they are raised to be too trusting of anything that seems to have a "Rabbinic" stamp of approval and have a hard time asserting themselves when challenged.

This highlights the need for parents to go over plans with their children, check them out and discuss issues that are likely to come up. It surprises me that parents would send their teens on such a trip without even knowing who the sponsors or counselors would be.

I wouldn't mind doing such work if I could do it from home. If I had to travel and also pay for childcare, it wouldn't be worth it. Do any businesses that you know of offer proofreading work from home?

How do you get work as a proofreader?

If I understand correctly, the Rebbe held that both the earth and sun, as well as all heavenly bodies, are moving around each other (as per Einstien) so there really is no room to say definitively that *we* are revolving around the sun. Rather it depends on your perspective, and the way we choose to base our perspective affects the outcome. I think the success of the Rebbe's movement can be attributed in large part to this approach: Each emissary moved to a new city with the firm belief that Judaism in that city revolved around him and the Rebbe's teachings, and so it became in reality. This might come across as offensive to some so I apologize for that in advance; in my last post I pointed out that viewing yourself as the center must be accompanied with all due humility, of knowing that G-d placed you in that position etc.

Thank you, ZC, I think you stated it quite well, in a nutshell.

With so many learned Sages having departed in the last few years, who exactly is the Nasi' of our generation, Alouette?

I kind of wonder the same thing, since the Rebbe in his talks mentioned quite a number of times that in every generation there is a leader like Moses, who has the soul of Moses, and who is the Messiah of the generation. Those who believe that the Rebbe is Messiah believe that he continues to be the leader of the generation. There are others who believe that the Rebbe's soul powers somehow passed into his followers, collectively, so that all of us are imbued with the powers of Messiah and are continuing his work. I think this is a good explanation and in essence, both beliefs are one and the same.

You don't hear much about it in the mainstream press (because it is obscured by the late Rebbe's "quaint" ethnicity) but he was not only a stupendous intellect but a staunch defender of literal six day creation. And from something I skimmed a while back in a bookstore, he may still have subscribed to the "pre-Copernican" worldview, though I'm not sure about that. I wish Orthodox Jews would discuss these issues more often and not confine themselves to combatting conventional bigotry alone.

You are absolutely correct in this. The Rebbe actually held that the Copernican view was rendered obsolete by Einstien, who proved that all bodies in space are moving so there really is no absolute vantage point to determine what is the actual center. Physics has also proven the power of free will to bring events into existence. So I think in essence that the Rebbe's point was that we are the center of existence when we *choose* to be the center of existence and act accordingly (not with arrogance but with all due humility - that G-d gave puny beings like us the ability to have a massive impact on all of creation.)

I am Jewish, and I am close to several Chabad Rabbis, who are open with me about their belief in the Rebbe being Messiah. It's kind of an involved discussion, but there is a Talmudic passage in Sanhedrin that indicates that Messiah can be from those who are resurrected.

My point, again, is that there are numerous Rabbis, who are qualified to rule and interpret Jewish law, who do not see a problem with the Lubavitcher's belief in the Rebbe as Messiah. Not everyone *has* to hold this belief; it is their choice. But holding this belief does not render someone a heretic or an idol-worshipper. The Chabad Rabbis I know are extremely dedicated to their Jewish observance and are in fact indistinguishable from other Chabad Rabbis, with the exception that I can ask them questions about the Messiah and they respond directly without any hedging. They are not afraid to discuss the issue publicly.

If Chasidic philosophy contradicts the written and oral Torah on this point, so much the worse for Chasidic philosophy.

Chasidic philosophy absolutely does not contradict the written or oral Torah in any way, as further study will surely reveal to you. This battle has already been fought (by the Vilna gaon and his adherents versus the Baal Shem Tov and his followers.) The belief that the Rebbe is Messiah is consistent with Chassidic teachings and with Jewish law. In fact, the Lubavitcher Rebbe in his public addresses constantly referred to his (deceased) father-in-law as the Messiah. Chassidim who refer to the Rebbe as Messiah are only following in his footsteps.

The Rebbe was not "killed," so this particular statement of Maimonides is not relevant to the situation at hand.

In any event, I would like to wrap up this conversation with one point. Many Chabadniks continue to believe that the Rebbe is the Messiah, and they have sources to back them up. This isn't the religion board so I will lay off of the proofs and counterproofs as it gets rather nitpicky. Bottom line, this is their sincerely held belief, that has deep roots in Chassidic theology. Just to disabuse anyone of the notion that it is an ephemeral phenomenon that is dissipating. Chassidim have always believed in their Rebbe as Messiah. Those who claim otherwise are just not very well versed in Chassidic philosophy, particularly the talks of the Rebbe.

Can you quote me which ones?

That seems a reasonable approach if the messianist "movement" is indeed waning rather than waxing. This is the kind of thing where you aren't likely to change people's minds. Better to let the passage of time take care of the problem.

This sounds ironically like the predictions made about the survival of Chassidism and Orthodoxy after WWII. Yeah, they're over, their influence is waning, soon there won't be any Chassidic Jews alive, anachronistic relics of a bygone age. Chabad proved them all wrong with their dedicated, idealistic approach, and I suspect that in the end the Messianists in Chabad will have the last laugh. As most Jews will admit in private, who cares who's right, just let Moshiach come already!

Furthermore, let's compare the kookiness of the Messianists to the Messianic kookiness of Judaism itself. A king will arise from the house of David. He will fight the battles of G-d and be victorious, gather the exiles, rebuild the Holy Temple on the site of the Al-aqsa mosque, and re-institute the Temple services including animal sacrifices. This is no Chabad invention, it's an integral part of Judaism and part of the 13 principals of faith codified by Maimonides. Those who are put off by the Messianism of Chabad need to check their Jewish sources and find whether it is Chabad that puts them off or something that is endemic to Judaism itself.