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To: Zionist Conspirator
I'm certainly not a "messianist," but as I understand it the "messianic" position is based on either one of two positions: 1) The Jews built the golden calf after HaSatan showed them a vision of Moses dead, and the death of the Rebbe is a similar illusion, or 2) Mashiach may either be from among the living Sages or he may be from among one of the resurrected Sages of the past, like Daniel.

Thank you, ZC, I think you stated it quite well, in a nutshell.

With so many learned Sages having departed in the last few years, who exactly is the Nasi' of our generation, Alouette?

I kind of wonder the same thing, since the Rebbe in his talks mentioned quite a number of times that in every generation there is a leader like Moses, who has the soul of Moses, and who is the Messiah of the generation. Those who believe that the Rebbe is Messiah believe that he continues to be the leader of the generation. There are others who believe that the Rebbe's soul powers somehow passed into his followers, collectively, so that all of us are imbued with the powers of Messiah and are continuing his work. I think this is a good explanation and in essence, both beliefs are one and the same.

You don't hear much about it in the mainstream press (because it is obscured by the late Rebbe's "quaint" ethnicity) but he was not only a stupendous intellect but a staunch defender of literal six day creation. And from something I skimmed a while back in a bookstore, he may still have subscribed to the "pre-Copernican" worldview, though I'm not sure about that. I wish Orthodox Jews would discuss these issues more often and not confine themselves to combatting conventional bigotry alone.

You are absolutely correct in this. The Rebbe actually held that the Copernican view was rendered obsolete by Einstien, who proved that all bodies in space are moving so there really is no absolute vantage point to determine what is the actual center. Physics has also proven the power of free will to bring events into existence. So I think in essence that the Rebbe's point was that we are the center of existence when we *choose* to be the center of existence and act accordingly (not with arrogance but with all due humility - that G-d gave puny beings like us the ability to have a massive impact on all of creation.)

79 posted on 06/23/2004 1:01:12 PM PDT by alogonquin
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To: alogonquin
You are absolutely correct in this. The Rebbe actually held that the Copernican view was rendered obsolete by Einstien, who proved that all bodies in space are moving so there really is no absolute vantage point to determine what is the actual center. Physics has also proven the power of free will to bring events into existence. So I think in essence that the Rebbe's point was that we are the center of existence when we *choose* to be the center of existence and act accordingly (not with arrogance but with all due humility - that G-d gave puny beings like us the ability to have a massive impact on all of creation.)

Thanks for the feedback, but I was referring to a much more literal definition of pre-Copernican: that the earth is the literal center of the universe, absolutely unmoving, and everything else revolves around it. I read something in a book on the CHaBa"Dniks in a bookstore that led me to suspect they might object to the traditional Copernican and post-Copernican helio- and a-centrism.

Of course maybe you're saying the same thing in a more profound way. I'm afraid I ain't that profound.

Besides, as I understand it, Einstein merely came up with a theory. It has neither been proved nor disproved, and it possibly never will be.

80 posted on 06/23/2004 1:10:36 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Kisei' vaMizbeach! (BiYrushalayim HaBenuyah!!))
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