No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[Blzbba]

Catholics recognize the Pope's authority over the Church.

Which Catholics - the millions who ignore the Pope's stance on birth control and use condoms/pill for family planning, yet faithfully attend Mass and tithe their 10%? If these Catholics suddenly stopped attending Mass, attendance would plummet everywhere.

[Blzbba]

How many female Apostles did Jesus choose? How many child molesting Apostles did Jesus choose? Your point?

Your point?

[Blzbba]

"Not a single kid that I grew up with ever became an archaeologist -- does that mean that those class trips to the Museum of Natural History were a waste of time? "


I'll give you that. I see your point, btw, but other posts have made it appear that altar service is a preparation for seminary, whereas your POV is that it's exposure, which I agree with.

[Blzbba]

Apparently you were poorly catechized, like the rest of us.

and yet, stunningly, I attended Catholic grade school from 1-6! I even had nuns as teachers! Yet, my parents agree with you re:poor catechism teaching. As an adult, I've little interest in educating myself about the Church, but you do make a good point.

[Blzbba]

Nevertheless, from a strictly scientific perspective, the theory of evolution is in freefall

Not sure why you say that, given the findings of a multitude of observed experiments with lifespans that allow the viewing of hundreds of generations...but I don't want to attract that idiot "f.Christian" to this thread, so we'll save the Evolution discussion for another thread. Meanwhile, more and more evidence daily is found that continues to debunk the 7-day myth of Creationism and a 10,000-15,000 year old human race. I do agree with you re:"Scientific teaching has always been outside the competency of the church since the Church teaches infallibly only regarding faith and morals." To me, leave science to scientists and faith to theologians.

[Blzbba]

But there is one on earth to whom even you will kneel. You see him every day when you look in the mirror.

Gosh, I'm not that important. I 'kneel' to the demands and lives of my wife and babies, but NOT to myself, believe me. I'm nothing special.

[Marysecretary]

You can worship any way you like. I'm saying that the Holy Spirit can do what He likes in our services. We all need to be open to that.

I, of course, do not believe the Catholic church is the one true church as you believe. I don't believe Peter was the first Pope. Yes, Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church but nowhere in scripture do I find that Peter was the first Pope of the Catholic church. But, I digress. At this point, it doesn't matter. Everyone has a right to worship the way they wish. We all just need to be aware of the move of the Holy Spirit in our services.

[Marysecretary]

I agree with you. Many mainline churches have turned away from the message of salvation, repentance, holiness, righteousness. I was a Methodist much of my life and never heard about salvation. I got saved in a little Baptist Church. I thank God that the pastor called on my neighbors and invited me to that church. Now I belong to a growing spirit filled church, a well balanced one where you hear the Word and have terrific worship and prayer. I respect my pastors because I know they are spirit-filled men who pray and preach God's word without legalism or compromise. It's a joy to be in church on Sunday morning. I was Episcopalian for most of my childhood and sang in the choir and loved the formality of it then. (The benches were soooo hard. I remember that!) God brought me to this church when I moved back to town. I've been here almost 20 years now and it is truly my loving family. I have confidence in my pastors. They aren't leading us down a path that leads to nowhere. My faith is continually challenged and encouraged to grow. I praise God for them. I was in other churches long enough to know that they were pitching hay out of an empty wagon, so to speak.

[Marysecretary]

Our women don't dance in skimpy clothes. They wear long, loose fitting white dresses with long pants underneath. Their movements are graceful and beautiful. We've had people come to know the Lord as their saviour because of the pageantry at Easter or Christmas in which these men and women dance. It's truly an anointed and moving experience.

If dance is not anointed, it becomes only a means of entertainment. That goes for all music. But when God anoints a performance, people weep, they long for more of God, they feel closer to Him. I can't really explain it. If you've never experienced true worship in dance, then you don't know what I mean.

[Catholicguy]

The Holy Spirit works through the competent authorities, especially through those with Divinely-constituted authority, i.e. the Pope, so our Worship of the One True God is in spirit and truth and free from spontaneity which, we Catholics believe, is the antithesis of worship. Our worship is based upon the Last Supper, which, was solemn, regulated, and well-ordered and during which time no Apostle began to yell, clap, bang drums, or dance. The Pasch was well-regulated.

But, I am glad you recognise our right to worship as we desire - so why are you repeatedly telling us, on a thread devoted to Catholic Liturgy, about how it is you worship and why we must listen to thus and such which you, absent objective evidence, insist is of the Holy Spirit?

[Protagoras]

You should take a pass on THAT church.

When you find a perfect denomination, let me know, I'll join.

In the mean time, I'll stand and fight to return my denomination to biblical standards.

[ninenot]

exploiting Galileo's "martyrdom" to take shots at ChristianityCatholicism

More accurate. Christianity takes a lot of shots--but frankly, the World Council of Churches and the Prot mainliners don't take NEAR the amount that the Catholics (e.g., Mel Gibson) do...

[ninenot]

In fact, the doctrine of "the Bible alone" would have been totally impossible in the first 400 years of the Church's existence since the New Testament wasn't canonized until around the year 400 A.D.

This is congruent with the difference between "lex" (written laws) and "ius" (the unwritten laws) now a major part of the Culture Wars going on in the USA and elsewhere.

An example, although homely, is found in the current debate over a Constitutional Amendment defining marriage (!!!!!) as between a man and a woman--something NEVER before a part of "lex" because it was part of "ius"---the unwritten, but known-to-all, law.

[ninenot]

When you get appointed, establish www.adoremus.org as one of your Favorites on Explorer. It will be VERY helpful.

[RaginCajunTrad]

"No, you take a hike with your outdated ideas that have brought nothing but scandal, lawsuits, and depraved 'priests' who are coddled and sheltered from justice. It's time the Vatican join the 19th century."

Excuse me. The priest pedophile/homosexual scandals have much more to do with the militant gay rights movement of the 20th & 21st centuries than they do with "outdated ideas."

This is the modernist heresy at its finest (worst).

[Skooz]

Christianity takes a lot of shots--but frankly, the World Council of Churches and the Prot mainliners don't take NEAR the amount that the Catholics (e.g., Mel Gibson) do...

Please don't associate true Christians with the apostate "Mainline" Protestant denominations and their Marxist absurdity spawn, the WCC. We have nothing in common.

And if you don't think born again Christians take a lot of shots, you have your head in the sand. No group is more hated and attacked in our culture.

[ninenot]

The priest pedophile/homosexual scandals have much more to do with the militant gay rights movement of the 20th & 21st centuries than they do with "outdated ideas."

Fraternally, they have more to do with the Sexual Revolution--a global upsetting of ALL sexual mores which "blossomed" in the 1960's.

Foretold by GKChesterton in about 1920, of course.

[Aquinasfan]

Meanwhile, more and more evidence daily is found that continues to debunk the 7-day myth of Creationism and a 10,000-15,000 year old human race.

That may be true, but the development of the human race by "evolution" doesn't necessarily follow. I don't want to do the evolution/creation thing here either, but I'll just point you to Philip Johnson's book, "Darwin on Trial" and www.arn.org.

[SoothingDave]

Which Catholics - the millions who ignore the Pope's stance on birth control and use condoms/pill for family planning, yet faithfully attend Mass and tithe their 10%? If these Catholics suddenly stopped attending Mass, attendance would plummet everywhere.

And? Do you want to belong to the popular Church or the True One?

SD

[Marysecretary]

Look, Catholicguy, on these threads we can give our own experiences whether you like that or not. If you want to worship your way, I have no problem with that. But what gets me with most Catholics I know, your way is the ONLY way and that just plain isn't true. The Holy Spirit shows up in our services and you can feel the anointing there. It's nothing I can explain to you. My husband, my pastor, and a number of people in our church were raised in the Catholic church so my pastor does insist on a certain decorum. We don't swing from chandeliers or climb the walls. Everything is done in order, with reverence to an awesome God. I don't insist it's from the HS, I KNOW it is because my spirit bears witness with His spirit. I know you probably don't understand that, but that's how it is. With freedom does come responsibility and we have pastors who keep things in order.