Posted on 09/23/2003 7:50:20 AM PDT by presidio9
No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.
Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.
According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.
The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.
If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.
According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."
The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.
Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.
Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.
The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."
Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.
Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.
The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.
The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.
It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.
Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.
"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.
As to accountability, Christ will hold them responsible. You will not. Nor will I.
Your second paragraph is no more true of you than it was of Luther.
Finally, you seem to cofuse infallibility with impeccability. Our popes are the former and not the latter.
The church sends people to the helping professions all the time. I couldn't even get an annulment without my records. I hated like hell signing them over to the church but I did.
I don't know why you are being so judgmental. No, I don't want to serve if ALL I'm good for is cleaning up after the men. Once in awhile I don't mind, but for the rest of my life I don't think I could stand it.
Why not? No problem with it s'far as I know. Unless a priest is particularly struggling with that sort of temptation, talking with a single woman should not be a big deal, and isn't. (It is important to avoid the appearance of impropriety, though. If people see the two of you and think you're on a date or something, that hurts the Church even though it's a mistaken conclusion.)
If you cannot bring yourself to come back to Church, stop using your problems as a distraction on such threads as this. The entire Roman Catholic Church is not about you and you alone. Get spiritual advice from the qualified.
What is your definition of "serve"?
Here in my parish we have many women who have visible public roles during the Mass. Lectors, Cantors, and the ubiqutous Eucharistic Ministers. These ways of "serving" are all open to women, in fact are in many ways dominated by them.
Certainly proclaiming the Bible, or singing the Psalm in front of everyone is not "cleaning up" after men, is it?
Other ministries and things go on behind the scenes as well, and not all are janitorial in scope.
SD
I'm painfully aware of reality. I'll bet there are a lot of other women who feel like I do and don't dare talk about it. Some of those women I watched didn't seem happy at all, yet they were serving because it was expected of them and it was their main social outlet.
I believe it is exactly the opposite, it is part of a man's responsibility as a gentleman to refrain from having sex, period, or from having sex with any woman that does not freely, soberly consent. It is a man's responsibility to guard over the honor of a woman (though of course she should guard her own honor too) -- that is tradition and still holds true today. A drunk woman can't consent to sex, and if a man has sex with her she's well within her bounds to cry rape and send him to the slammer.
Well, I'm sure there are many on this site who will pray for a rebirth of your faith. I know I will.
I compare these issues to the oath taken by the armed forces: they swear allegiance to the Constitution, not to the President or his officers. So to do I find my devotion owing to Christ and His Church--as defined by the Cathechism (and not the humans who hold office). You can't go wrong with devotion to the universal and eternal principals of His Church. And even when I differ with wayward bishops, I know they are only imperfect officers charged with administration of His Holy Church.
A gentleman, yes. But we must warn our daughters that not all men are gentlemen.
SD
I don't seek a visible public role because that is not me. I just want to feel better about myself. People can tell me that God loves me until the cows come home, but I have never felt his love.
Hm, not sure what to make of that, but if you like sinners I can recommend the fiction of two devout Catholics:
Graham Greene: not the cheeriest books but that's what they get for being "real" -- three of his novels are particularly related to Catholicism: "The Power and the Glory", about a alcoholic sinner/saint priest in Mexico under religious persecution; "Brighton Rock" (I've never read); and "The Heart of the Matter", about a man who thinks he cannot love, only pity.
Sigrid Undset: "Kristin Lavransdatter", the fictional life of a woman (youth to death) in early 14th cent Norway (talk about gender roles!), the similarly set "Olav Audunson" (aka "The Master of Hestviken"), and the two-novel set "The Wild Orchid" and "The Burning Bush", about Paul Selmer's journey from humanism to Catholicism in the early 20th century. (Undset herself converted to Catholicism and I suspect it's rather biographical.) "Kristin Lavransdatter" is her best-known work and won her the Nobel Prize.
All deal with faith and the Church in the modern world (even the medieval Undset ones). Oh, and Willa Cather's "Death Comes for the Archbishop" is another good one, quite peaceful and faithful.
How many child molesting Apostles did Jesus choose?
Your point?
And I go the extra mile, helping young men to understand that being a gentleman will be good for their health.
I always clean my guns when they stop over for their first visit to my home...
As I have already realised, because I have looked around and can see the Sun by daylight... :-)
And now in the same shape the Jesuits are in as a whole, sponsoring pro-abortion politicians and goodness knows who else for commencement, etc.
Still, I think HC is more Catholic than a lot of other Catholic schools.
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