No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[Blzbba]

Boys and girls have different positions and duties in the church

As a father of a daughter, I have to ask you: What roles in the church are there for young girls who desire a role? If you take away 'Altar Service', what is there left for them? And why are altar girls so threatening to so many people (not you necessarily, but others in this thread)? What IS the big deal? Does anyone really REALLY think God is offended by the actions of one of His creation - a little girl - helping the priest? It boggles my mind. I appreciate your level-headed, rational post and agree with you when you say that "I think one of the most evil things done to humanity is convincing them all that women in their roles are secondary. ". I just don't think that the specific role of altar girls is the huge, sacrilegous threat to Catholocism it's being made out to be.

[dangus]

>>I really can't believe people can get so upset about someone clapping the house of God.

The clapping is done in praise of people. When you applaud people (not God), it says that the people are what's important.

[ninenot]

Maybe.

More the likely it is a gently-worded reminder that there IS SUCH A THING AS "sacred time/sacred space."

And--that Rome is the FINAL arbiter of liturgy, period. Not the poofterwonks who have dominated the scene since Bugnini.

[Pyro7480]

No, you take a hike with your outdated ideas that have brought nothing but scandal, lawsuits, and depraved 'priests' who are coddled and sheltered from justice. It's time the Vatican join the 19th century.

You sound just like the radical feminists who scream at the "patriarchy" of the Church. But then I recall that Protestantism was the original force of wreckovation in the Western world.

[Skooz]

Nothing you ever do, nothing you ever think is good enough to please their God.

You're right. Nothing we can do can possibly please a holy God. That's why He sent His Son. The Word of God says that Jesus became the propitiation for our sins. When He becomes our Savior, He gives us His righteousness as well as salvation. From that point on, whenever God looks at you, he sees His Son. From that point on, you are, in a spiritual sense, perfection.

[Terriergal]

Rome is the FINAL arbiter of liturgy, period

tell me, do you have an English Language catholic bible? because at one time, Rome was opposed to that too.

[dangus]

So one who detests applause, and has witnessed abuse of dancing, I think some more praise and worship as a *prelude* to mass would be a good thing.

One reason that won't take off is they usually have to stack the masses very close to each other: something like 7:30, 9, 10:30, noon, 1:30 (in Espanol) and 6. The extra half hour is to clear the church and the parking lot before the next crew arrives.

[SuziQ]

Well, I for one am gonna wait until I see something official from the Vatican before I comment. I don't believe ANYTHING Reuters might say.

[Blzbba]

You last paragraph is a stew of paradoxes.

As is your first sentence, BlackElk. Let's take a look at it: If a woman is sooooo wedded to the standards of the world that equality (or what passes for equality) or ANYTHING else is more important that the Mass, the sacraments and the truth, then she has already apostasized ...

Well, if a person is soooo wedded to the man-made-and-oft-edited standards of the Church that seeing Altar Girls instead of Altar Boys is more important than the Mass, Sacraments, and Truth, than the person has already apostasized... Do you really think God is so highly offended by the actions of an innocent little girl helping the priest? If so, then you & I share a faith, but not a deity, for my God couldn't care less about such trivialities, as long as one's heart is pure.

[Campion]

No, you take a hike with your outdated ideas that have brought nothing but scandal, lawsuits, and depraved 'priests' who are coddled and sheltered from justice.

What kind of flying leap of emotive illogic gets you from "altar servers should be males" to "scandal, lawsuits, and sheltering depraved priests from justice"?

Do you normally assume that any adult male engaged in an innocent activity with a boy is doing so as a prelude to homosexual abuse? Why?

[JohnnyZ]

Everytime I see how frail the pope has become I think this as well.

You confuse physical frailty with mental acuity, and insult the Pope in the process.

Plus you (both) seem to imply Ratzinger (et al) is the scion of evil rather than the servant of God that he is.

Both views are uninformed and insulting.

[truthingod]

Have you ever been in a church service where someone asked the congregation to lift up praise to God, and lot's of people share in a moment of praise by clapping as a form of recognition to God Himself? It has happened hundreds of times to me in lots of places. I understand that we recognize the efforts of someone or a group to sing a song or perform something--clapping is a cultural recognition of their effort--can't it be the same for God also? I don't think He gets as offended as we all do. He is a very big God and can probably handle all of us pretty well.

[presidio9]

because at one time, Rome was opposed to that too.

And may one day be again...

[dangus]

Get a new therapist, quickly! Why is she telling you *her* abuse? Therapists should be tryin to heal, not dish their issues onto you!

Nuns had many stupid notions, they are not always representative of actual church beliefs.

[Blzbba]

Nobody is "afraid" of altar girls. It's just that it doesn't make sense to have females serving in what is often a first step in the ordination process when they can't be ordained anyway.

It makes plenty of sense if that's all the innocent little 8 year old wants to do - help the priest. Not a single altar boy that I grew up with (I was one from 8-12) ever became a priest...so why should we have been altar boys?

[miss marmelstein]

"...criticize harshly those who offer up their musical gifts..."

My point was that many of the people doing the singing and dancing thoroughly lack any "musical gifts."

And I'm only talking about the Catholic Church, not the American Protestant faiths. Their music is a high priority and has contributed mightily to the American song book. But Catholics don't have such a tradition. The emphasis has always been on the Holy Eucharist, not singing.

That being said, does anyone out there remember the old Catholic school tradition held every May of placing a crown of flowers on the head of a statue of Mary and singing the immortal "Bring Flowers To the Rarest"?

[Petronski]

Men and society don't love them or respect their abilities so they react.

Feminism is inherently selfish, it's an angry, prideful fist thrust in the air. But God is love. Men and society both may very well have abandoned them, but Jesus would not, and has not.

In feminism (the angry miilitant kind), the abandonment is working rather in the opposite direction.

[dangus]

>> This I do not understand. Jesus commanded that we eat His Body, and drink His Blood. Not one or the other.

I don't get why they find a problem with receiving both, either. But the church has long held that the body and blood are both present in each species.

[Blzbba]

Do you normally assume that any adult male engaged in an innocent activity with a boy is doing so as a prelude to homosexual abuse? Why?

No, but a huge amount of the sexual perversions of sick, protected-from-law priests involved altar boys. Personally, I don't want my son becoming one and if he chooses to be one, I will watch over him and the priest like a hawk.

[Marysecretary]

God expects men to the the 'prophet, priest and king' of their homes. Why more don't do that is beyond me. The woman is expected to be the one who raises the children in the 'nurture and the admonition of the Lord' and you know, God's not really happy about that. He gave each of us roles and it's NOT the role of the woman to be the spiritual leader. When you see men actually doing that, it's a real blessing.