No Clapping, Dancing at Mass, Vatican to Warn

Reuters ^ | Tue, Sep 23, 2003 | Philip Pullella

[presidio9]

No dancing in the aisles or applause in church, please, we're Catholic. And we'd prefer altar boys to altar girls.

Those are some of the warnings contained in the draft of a document the Vatican (news - web sites) is preparing to crack down on what it considers "liturgical abuses" of the mass, the focus of Roman Catholic worship.

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

The magazine released an advance text of the article which will feature in its October edition.

If issued in its draft form, the document, known as a directive, could have wide-ranging ramifications on some worship practices that have come into common use in many developed countries, particularly the United States and in western Europe.

According to the magazine, the draft says the use of girl altar servers should be avoided "unless there is a just pastoral cause" and that "priests should never feel obliged to seek girls for this function."

The Vatican in 1994 gave individual bishops the power to decide whether to allow altar girls in their dioceses. But some conservative Catholics are against altar girls, saying their presence has eroded a traditional recruiting ground for priests.

Traditionalists have also seen altar girls as a foot in the door to a female priesthood, which the church bans.

Italian media reported that the initial reaction to the draft, circulated to the world's bishops, has been negative and the document may have to be at least partially modified.

The draft document also discourages applause during masses and "dances inside the sacred building."

Ironically, Pope John Paul (news - web sites)'s sermons during masses, even those in St Peter's Basilica, are often interrupted by applause.

Some of the pope's masses in Rome and around the world have included dancing, particularly those celebrations marking Asian, African or Latin American events.

The document, drafted by two Vatican departments which oversee doctrine and liturgy, was ordered by the pope who will eventually have to approve a final version.

The draft also warns against the use of non-Biblical language during the mass, such as readings from poets.

It discourages the practice where the faithful receive the wafer and wine at communion.

Catholics believe Christ is present in the wafer and wine but the document says it is preferable just to receive the wafer.

"Self-service" communion is also frowned upon. This appeared to be a reference to the faithful taking the consecrated host directly from the chalice instead of receiving it on their tongue from the hand of a priest.

[TxBec]

Next thing you know we will all be wearing veils again.

Having finally attended a Latin mass in Austin recently, I wouldn't mind that at all. I've already been looking for a mantilla online and I am really looking forward to driving down again. I think it is a wonderful tradition. It's sad that it has been all but swept away..

[Phantom Lord]

I have often been given "attitude" by southern baptists, but more of it has been directed at my wife who is jewish and friends who are jewish. On more than one occasion they have been told they are going to hell by southern baptists. I have been told I am going to hell by them for drinking alcohol, and have been accused of being "in league with the devil" for my practice of ledgerdomain and conjuring (fancy way of saying I am a magician).

They also seem to be driven by a fear that somewhere, someone is having fun.

[Aquinasfan]

I don't understand why the Vatican and some traditional Catholics are so afraid of altar girls either.

My eight-year-old daughter recently asked me if girls could be priests. I said "no," and she wrinkled her nose. Certainly the sight of altar girls could lead her to this idea.

[Desdemona]

[even bigger sigh]

But, you see, Mass and our attitudes and posture at Mass and about it are important. When Mass was tinkered with and almost destroyed as a beautiful Holy Sacrafice, people started treating each other with disrespect. It was just one of many things, but this most welcome crackdown of abuses will help restore respect.

And truthfully, the worst of the scandal problems took place in the 60's and 70's when the innovations took place. Since 1984, when the bishops took the initiative to clean things up, the church has swung back the other way. They just did it quietly. Not every bishop cooperated fully and God knows who they are and He will see to their justice. The scandal of the last couple years has been more of a purge, really.

[Phantom Lord]

You are persecuting me in any way, shape, or form and you are free to say anything you please. I am very hard to offend. Darn near impossible.

[truthingod]

I really can't believe people can get so upset about someone clapping the house of God. I don't think He's asleep, so it's okay to wake Him up with a glad sound.
The greatest freedom in worship comes when we take our focus off ourselves and put it comepletely on Him. I can truly say the greatest moments of worship have come with a single piano and simple heart singing a song of adoration. I also enjoy a great shout, which God himself seems to mention frequently within His ideas for worship. It was a shout that brought down the walls! I think it is time to shout and bring down the walls of dead religion so others can get in. Jesus was after those who had been left on the outside.

[Aliska]

Church will drive away the womyn who come to the Church to get some "power, honor and glory."

It would suit me if it drove away all those who think women aren't worthy of "power, honor and glory" like they lavish on men in high places. Your use of the word "womyn" shows your contempt for them as is evidenced by many posters on this forum, including even women who march lock-step with the men.

[Phantom Lord]

Add the word "not" after "are" in my previous post.

[Protagoras]

....it's not "catholic" anymore.

Actually, it's quite "catholic", but not very "Catholic".

[smith288]

Holy Mass isn't the time for a Hootenanny. "All things have their season, and in their times all things pass under heaven." (Eccles. 3.1)

Translated to: "Sit there, shut up." ???

Im sorry, pardon my ignorance but I didnt read that as "No having fun in Church". Sorry. Not trying to be confrontational, just debate the fact that God wants us to sit quietly absent of outward joy of his presence.

[Skooz]

I attended a Southern Baptist church from 1985-1990 and have attended an Assembly of God church for the past 13 years. The praise and worship of the two are very different.

Your report sounds as if it could have come from a service in my church.

Assemblies of God definitely clap and "sway" during the 40 minute musical opening. To them, it's supposed to invite the Holy Spirit in to the gathering.

That is based on Psalms 100:4--"Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise..."

[January24th]

...sacred places.

I give a full nod to our innate sense of place and I agree that God sets places apart as "holy unto the Lord." I'm merely making a distinction between holy action being considered inappropriate in a "holy place." It's the Presence that makes it Holy, not the placement.

You know, doctrine is nice, but the words of Christ reveal even his frustration with church leaders who insisted that rite, ritual, and traditional practice were to be preferred before meeting human need or Godly relationship. Folks didn't flock to Jesus because of his command of Pharasaical law. They were oppressed by all of it. Jesus' harshest criticism was directed at the Church leaders of his day because of this very same attitude: let's clean up the appearance of our actions, but not our hearts.

Jesus said some "not very nice" things to church leaders that would get His comments pulled from this thread.

[Petronski]

My use of the word "womyn" merely acknowledges all the other feminist buzzwords flying around in this thread.

[Ann Archy]

WOW...which Church is it? Next time I'm in the area, I'l attend.

[Revolting cat!]

Bummer! No more American Bandstand/Soul Train/MTV immitations during Catholic mass? What are these bishops thinking? (I note a surge of disappointment around here.)

[Skooz]

I have often been given "attitude" by southern baptists, but more of it has been directed at my wife who is jewish and friends who are jewish. On more than one occasion they have been told they are going to hell by southern baptists. I have been told I am going to hell by them for drinking alcohol, and have been accused of being "in league with the devil" for my practice of ledgerdomain and conjuring (fancy way of saying I am a magician).

They also seem to be driven by a fear that somewhere, someone is having fun.

That is unfortunate, but must be an aberration. I have known literally thousands of Southern Baptists and such behavior I have never observed (or even heard about).

[ArrogantBustard]

My Diocese (Arlington, VA) does not stand during the Consecration. The Dreadful Diocese of Richmond, to our immediate south, tolerates and encourages all manner of liturgica abuse, to include building churches with no kneelers. Their Bishop, Walter Sullivan, just retired. Pray for his successor.

[Petronski]

All the "power, honor and glory" are His, and woe to those who try to take them upon themselves.

[Aliska]

The entire purpose of religion seems to have been wasted on you.

I have stopped going to church. Therapy hasn't done much good either. My female catholic therapist told me how she was taught by the nuns that females are responsible for men's uncontrollable sexual impulses. In short, men can't control their impulses, but women must control theirs. That's just an example of how women are regarded. People just take it and are so used to it, they don't see anything wrong with it.

I am not the kind of "womyn" who would have ever wanted to be a priest, but I am the kind of "womyn" who would like to feel good about being in a church dominated by men who don't give a damn about us or our souls or our feelings.

[marshmallow]

According to the authoritative Italian Roman Catholic monthly magazine "Jesus," a draft document urges the faithful to notify their bishop or the Vatican to report suspected abuses.

Been there. Done that. Along with a significant number of other laity who'd had enough of impromptu liturgical improvisation and abuse of the rubrics.

Result? Nothing as far as remedial action against modernist clerics is concerned. However, I have been called a number of derogatory names by various bishops and clergy, along the lines of "fanatic", "rule-obsessed" etc etc.

In short, unless these reported guidelines are accompanied by a new resolve to discipline miscreants, the result will be a continued flouting of liturgical norms. Furthermore, in many dioceses in this country, the local Ordinary is often in the vanguard of the liturgical silliness, precluding him as a source of sanity in this matter.