Posted on 02/24/2003 9:12:32 AM PST by Frumanchu
Not at all corin...All men do exactly as they will to do..Every man will act in accordance to his nature and his preferences.
The fallen nature was not "given" by God..It was a result of the fall a consequence of it
God indeed knows our preferences because he placed them in us before the foundation of the world..He knows what we will choose....as Romans tells us we are sinful beings that will never choose to do good..never. Unregenerate man will always chose to sin..that will always be his choice.
Corin do you think God does not know what sins you will choose to committ?
I think we have to keep going back to Judas..God made Judas in such a way that Judas would be a conflicted man..I believe sincere in his admiration of Christ..but much of that love being founded in Judas own pride and desire for power and money..when it came the moment for God to remove the restraing hand on Judas so the true nature of the man would choose Judas chose exactly as God had expected and predestined by that creation..
Yet Judas at that moment had the same free will all men have..but he acted in a way consistant with his nature
Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge
Of course He knows. But, unlike the Calvinists, I don't believe He wants me to sin.
"God is in control of history and it goes where He directs it. Though He does not desire that people sin, He makes room it. Since He is in absolute control, He could have made a world where people did not sin. But since He did allow for it, then sin is, by default, in His plan. God desires that no one sin, yet He made plans for its occurrence. In other words, it is part of the plan of God. If it weren't, it would not have occurred. Therefore, we can plainly see that God can desire one thing and even ordain another by giving it a place in His sovereign plan. Therefore, God can desire all be saved, but not ordain that all are by making provision in His plan for their damnation: "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil," (Prov. 16:4)." ( From the Calvinist corner)
Seems like "The Calvinist Corner" (whoever the heck they are) also agrees that God makes people sin.
God makes no one sin, Corin. While God's Plan takes sin into account as a necessary part of it, God did not cause it. If it were not part of God's Plan, it wouldn't have happened, plain and simple. God's Will is that you not sin. Man's will is to sin. Adam made that choice, and we're all victims of his bad choice. But Adam's sin did not take God by surprise. God knew that Adam would sin. That in no way makes God the author of sin, as you keep trying to accuse Calvinists falsely of teaching and believing. You claim to have sat under Calvinist teaching for a time. Consider that it may not have been taught by a qualified or skilled teacher, and that would explain why you obviously don't understand Calvinist teaching, despite our repeated attempts to explain it. You really do not understand it. Of course, in order to be taught, one must have a teachable spirit and an open mind, neither of which you have displayed on this thread. That is not an attempt to insult you, it is a statement of fact which can be seen by all who have participated here. I apologize in advance if that offends you, as it wasn't meant to do so.
I do not usually wear the label of Calvinist, and some on these threads would say I'm a 4/5th Calvinist. I prefer to be labeled as a Christian who loves the Lord and serves Him, but if it makes you feel better to call me a Calvinist, then I'll take the label and wear it. That's not worth arguing or striving over. But I will vigorously stand in defense of the Word of God against all who would twist, distort, or corrupt its truth, no matter how right they may think they are. Not because God needs me to defend it (He doesn't), but because in so doing, I grow, I learn, and I understand better the God whom I serve, and whose I am. I retain an open mind, an open heart, and a spirit willing to be taught. As long as I do that, God will not allow me to be led into error, but into truth. That's the faith I have in Him, and in His Word.
There's no need to be patronizing just because your crowd can't defend your theology.
Sorry, I've also been on these threads for over a year now. The way your buddies have presented Calvinism, we sin because God makes us.
Now, if that's not what you believe, good. 'Cause it ain't right.
But even though no one will state it honestly, that's what has been taught here as Calvinism. And when we point it out you squeal like a stuck pig.
Patronizing? Hardly! Merely pointing out what I see and hear. It is obvious to me that you do not have a clear understanding of the Calvinist position, and that you haven't learned the finer points of constructing a logical argument. You drop "bombs" designed to supposedly "answer" arguments, or "disprove" someone else's position, but you don't engage in actual logical presentation of your position and why you believe it to be right. You're more content to act as a "yes man" for ftD than to actually present a cogent and logically laid out statement of your belief and why you believe it. Just quoting "proof texts" isn't going to cut it, because we can lob those back and forth at each other all day long.
Saying that God makes man sin is like saying that because you allowed your teenage son to drive the car, and he has an accident, that you caused him to wreck the car; or, because you allowed your daughter to go out on a date, and she has sex and gets pregnant, that you caused her pregnancy. That is precisely the logic you are employing, and it is obviously wrong. No Calvinist I know of would hold to such a position, that God causes man to sin, or that God is the author (originator) of sin. That connection exists within your own mind, due to faulty understanding of the Calvinist position.
You accuse others here of dishonesty, and I can't help but wonder about the three fingers on your pointing hand that point back at you when you make that accusation....
I see absolute foreknowledge coming to exactly the same conclusion.
Now you're playing the same game as ftD. You can't just give a straightforward answer. Do you agree that the will is governed by desire? Yes or no?
All agree that God abhors sin, but all must also agree that God in some manner must tolerate sin or there would BE no sin. If God had an absolute intolerance for sin, He never would have created us in the first place.
So, if both sides agree that God must tolerate sin, we must both answer the question above as to what greater purpose would have God tolerate that which He hates. Both sides also have to explain why God restrains some sin and allows other sin to happen.
Making the logical leap that because Reformed theology has God somehow willingly permitting sin He must be the author of that sin is foolish because non-Reformed theology must address the exact same permissiveness on the part of God. Classic pot and kettle situation.
And you know the response I get back from the Calvinists here?
Could I have stopped the wreck? After all, I could've prevented him from driving the car, couldn't I?
So I must've wanted him to have the wreck and must've wanted the daughter to get pregnant.
Right?
Funny that's the "answer" you give in response to my question.
Not foolish at all. It goes back to the Sovereignty issue.
I believe God allows sin to happen. When I've used the examples of 9-11, the holocaust, Andrea Yates, etc., I've gotten the "Could God have stopped it if He wanted to?" implying that God wanted it to happen.
God allowing something to happen and wanting something to happen are two entirely different things.
The Calvinist brethren here have told me for over a year that God wanted it all to happen for His good pleasure.
No, Corin. I've already answered the question you asked several times in the forum. You want the answer, you go back and look. I posted what I did because your response to my previous post was not to comment on its validity or soundness, but rather to jump on to something else. My post wasn't to answer your question, it was to show how you're being evasive (which is only perpetuated by #292).
That's my understanding of Calvinism as well. And I simply can't read that any other way than to believe that it means God decides what sins people will commit and then causes them to commit.
That is not what that says corin..Would you rather that God not foreknow sin?
So if your daughter gets pregnant that child can not part of Gods plan?
Corin does God have any say at all in the affairs of man?
Rn, it's not the foreknowing that's the issue with us.
It's the fact that it is part of God's plan. If you can show that you're simply talking about foreknowledge, I'd like to see that quote.
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