The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RnMomof7]

On most religious forums anyone that can not say Amen to the APOSTLES CREED or the NICENE CREED are not allowed to post in the Christian area
Probably the fullest definition of what is a christian is in the

ATHANASIAN CREED
Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian faith.


Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.


Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.


 


Now this is the true Christian faith:


We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God,


without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.


For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct,


but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,


equal in glory and coeternal in majesty.


What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.


The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated;


the Father is infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite;


the Father is eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal;


yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal,


just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite,


but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.


In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty;


yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;


yet they are not three Gods, but one God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;


yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.


For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord,


so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords.


The Father is neither made nor created nor begotten of anyone.


The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone.


The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten,


but proceeds from the Father and the Son.


So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.


And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior,


but all three persons are coequal and coeternal,


so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God


and one God worshiped as three persons.


Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.





It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe


that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh.


Now this is the true Christian faith:


We believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.


He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh,


equal to the Father as to his deity, less than the Father as to his humanity;


and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one,


one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God;


one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person;


for just as the rational soul and flesh are one human being,


so God and man are one Christ.


He suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead.


He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.


At his coming all people will rise with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds.


Those who have done good will enter eternal life,


but those who have done evil will go into eternal fire.





This is the true Christian faith.


be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian faith.


Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.


 


Now this is the true Christian faith:


We worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God,


without mixing the persons or dividing the divine being.


For each person -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- is distinct,


but the deity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,


equal in glory and coeternal in majesty.


What the Father is, so is the Son, and so is the Holy Spirit.


The Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated;


the Father is infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite;


the Father is eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal;


yet they are not three who are eternal, but there is one who is eternal,


just as they are not three who are uncreated, nor three who are infinite,


but there is one who is uncreated and one who is infinite.


In the same way the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty;


yet they are not three who are almighty, but there is one who is almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;


yet they are not three Gods, but one God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;


yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.


For just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually to be God and Lord,


so the true Christian faith forbids us to speak of three Gods or three Lords.


The Father is neither made nor created nor begotten of anyone.


The Son is neither made nor created, but is begotten of the Father alone.


The Holy Spirit is neither made nor created nor begotten,


but proceeds from the Father and the Son.


So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.


And within this Trinity none comes before or after; none is greater or inferior,


but all three persons are coequal and coeternal,


so that in every way, as stated before, all three persons are to be worshiped as one God


and one God worshiped as three persons.


Whoever wishes to be saved must have this conviction of the Trinity.





It is furthermore necessary for eternal salvation truly to believe


that our Lord Jesus Christ also took on human flesh.


Now this is the true Christian faith:


We believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.


He is God, eternally begotten from the nature of the Father, and he is man, born in time from the nature of his mother, fully God, fully man, with rational soul and human flesh,


equal to the Father as to his deity, less than the Father as to his humanity;


and though he is both God and Man, Christ is not two persons but one,


one, not by changing the deity into flesh, but by taking the humanity into God;


one, indeed, not by mixture of the natures, but by unity in one person;


for just as the rational soul and flesh are one human being,


so God and man are one Christ.


He suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose the third day from the dead.


He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.


At his coming all people will rise with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds.


Those who have done good will enter eternal life,


but those who have done evil will go into eternal fire.





This is the true Christian faith.


Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved.

[DouglasKC]

shakes head: What is the role of the Holy Ghost in that doctrine? Comic relief? < /end sarcasm>

You should know not to ask anyone who's been disagreeing with me for three days what doctrine I believe.

I believe that the father and the son make up the Godhead IN HEAVEN. The Holy Spirit is the presence, or power, of the father and/or son, in the creation. The holy spirit IS God's existence in the creation. The difference is that I don't consider it a "person" separate from the father and the son in a triune Godhead in heaven.

In other words, I don't see the Godhead as this:

But kind of like this:

[RnMomof7]

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all else, hold to the true Christian faith. Whoever does not keep this faith pure in all points will certainly perish forever.

Where is your spirit. when you die Doug..you have not wanted to answer this so my assumption is you believe it will be in heaven awaiting the resurrection ...correct?

[RnMomof7]

In Jewish belief, the Shekhinah, or Holy Spirit, is God's active Presence in the world. It is not seen as a separate person. Douglas adds to this a belief in the divinity of Jesus as the Son of God. He believes in the Holy Spirit, he just doesn't see it as a separate person in the Godhead.

No surprise as Jews do not believe in Jesus as Messiah

[CARepubGal]

Well, the term biune was confusing. And if a term is used, context is a good thing. So to recap, the HG is restricted to earth while the Father and Son are in heaven?

[JHavard]

You stand your ground , I just wish you would consider that maybe, just maybe you are reading the scriptures to support your belief and not reading the scriptures in context and taken as a whole.

RNMom, I have no beliefs in the matter to support, the Church I attend does not teach the same things I believe on this matter, but I have still not read anything so far that has changed my mind.

If you decide to post me on the matter fine, as long as they are short and concise, but I’m not going to compete to see who can use up the most cyberspace. I’ll answer any question you ask, but I will not respond to the filibusters I have seen so far.

If you need 4 pages to answer a 4 line question, then it’s not an answer, it’s smoke.

Lete me see if you will answer a question concerning a scripture with out confounding me with many words?

Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

How many different forms could Jesus appear in, after He had received His glorified body?

He used one form here In John, one when he passed through the walls where the believers were gathered, and he used another form when Thomas inspected His wounds, and one when He warned Marry Magdalene not to touch Him, and several other times many did not recognize Him.

Will our body only have one state, or many as Jesus did?

JH :-)

[malakhi]

When I think of "person", I think of a distinct personality. What does it mean to you to say that the members of the trinity are three separate persons?

[DouglasKC]

Well, the term biune was confusing. And if a term is used, context is a good thing. So to recap, the HG is restricted to earth while the Father and Son are in heaven?

The holy spirit IS God in all of creation. It is God's spirit, his active presence and power. It is what binds the universe. It is God as we know him. It is not "another" entitity, but like the Nicene creed states "proceeds from the father and son".

[nobdysfool]

Well for the millionth time, spirits have spiritual bodies. Paul calls Jesus a spirit, and says he gets a spiritual body. He goes through great pains to explain it. He be hitting you over the head with a stick right now if you were sitting in a class with him:

And you're missing the simple, inalterable fact that Jesus now has a body which is at once a "spiritual" body, and that body is made of flesh and bone! It is a body that has been changed by the power of God to be a spiritual body made of flesh and bone, something which did not exist before! God made it possible! It is incorruptible!

If you were sitting in a class with Him, He'd be saying, "C'mon, Doug! Touch me! Put your fingers into my hands and feet. Put your hand in my side! Whatsa matter? Afraid you'll be proven wrong?"

Talk about needing a Speak-n-Spell!

[CARepubGal]

Thanks for clarifying.

[First Conservative]

You have quoted passages from James to which you attribute meanings not specifically stated and contrary to Ephesians 2:8-9 ((Saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man shoud boast)>
How do you or your interpreters ignore or change this Scripture?

[DouglasKC]

In Jewish belief, the Shekhinah, or Holy Spirit, is God's active Presence in the world. It is not seen as a separate person. Douglas adds to this a belief in the divinity of Jesus as the Son of God. He believes in the Holy Spirit, he just doesn't see it as a separate person in the Godhead.

Exactly...

[DouglasKC]

And you're missing the simple, inalterable fact that Jesus now has a body which is at once a "spiritual" body, and that body is made of flesh and bone! It is a body that has been changed by the power of God to be a spiritual body made of flesh and bone, something which did not exist before! God made it possible! It is incorruptible!

Go back and answer jhavard's question at 65226...

[restornu]

This does not happen often!

[restornu]

Pslam 51
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take NOT thy holy spirit from me.

***

John 14
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will NOT leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

[malakhi]

Counting down...

300 299 posts until thread implosion! ;o)

[CARepubGal]

I sort of wondered when the implosion point would be reached. :-)

[malakhi]

65,535 is the limit. The "Hobbit Hole" over on the "General Interest" forum reached this milestone a few weeks ago. They notified John Robinson to make sure no software problems would result. Once the post limit was reached, if you tried to post you got a screen saying the thread was full.

Kind've anti-climactic, now that I think about it. Hmmm... Kevin, do you think the Hobbit Hole reaching singularity initiated a chain of events which caused the massive blackout last week? ;o)

[CARepubGal]

It was the Spider Hillary! IMEO (In my elvish opinion) ;-)

[malakhi]

Hillary as Shelob? Yep, seems plausible. :o)