The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[RnMomof7]

I have asked your about 5 times where you will be after you die until the resurrection. You do not answer but just keep moving the target. May I have an answer to that before we continue?

[DouglasKC]

I have asked your about 5 times where you will be after you die until the resurrection. You do not answer but just keep moving the target. May I have an answer to that before we continue?

You need to read my posts more closely. I answered that at least twice (i believe), the last time in 65196.

[JHavard]

I can’t believe the disgust that I’m seeing from everyone, concerning Doug’s views on the state of the resurrected body.

I haven’t been involved in any way with those who are still teaching Armstrong’s ideas for over 30 years now, but if I found a couple of truths have withstood the test of time, then should I throw them out, and replaced them with a belief that just doesn’t stick even if I would prefer them because they are more easily accepted by others?

Recently, this thread has dealt with those who won’t accept Jesus Christ as the begotten Son of God, those who condemn you for not going back under the law, and most here have been patient and understanding with them, but Doug differs in a small mater, the make up of Christ body after His resurrection, and everyone goes ballistic.

I see a pattern developing here that worries me.

RNMom, you seem to have a personal vendetta against Doug, and I remember not long ago when you were floating between Churches and were considering one that was into keeping the law, and I was concerned for you.

drstevej, you may not be aware of it, but Doug was searching for Christ when he began posting here and later he made his decision and was baptized. Hopefully after that, his idea of humor has changed since becoming a child of God, and one who will eventually be in God’s kingdom.

Most here should know I have disagreed with him many times, and on many matters, but I’ve never doubted his sincerity, nor have I seen any rudeness in him.

I really believe many of the attacks have become personal, and I don’t understand why. He has contributed many enjoyable post, and is an essential part of our discussions here. He deserves your respect and love if you have any real truths to share, not what you’ve demonstrated lately.

JH

[RnMomof7]

That was a great definition of glory, but once again you missed the point. Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:5 Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before the world was made.(Good News Bible)
If Jesus had the same glory as God the father WITH God the father, and God the father is spirit. And spirits have spiritual bodies, then yes absolutely Jesus has to have a spiritual body to get back the same glory he had before. Man, I feel like I should be getting out a Speak N' Spell for you sometimes. :-)

Doug you are the one that has a reading comprehension problem

You want glory to mean a spiritual Body ..but that is not what the Greek word for Glory means,

You miss the meaning of almost every scripture because you read them with Armstrong eyes ..completely without discernment.

BTW I think it is funny you had to use the worse translation ever done to make your point..and even with that you can not change the meaning of Glory ,,

Doxa	2:233,178
Phonetic Spelling	Parts of Speech
dox'-ah	Noun Feminine

 Definition

1. opinion, judgment, view
2. opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
   1. in the NT always a good opinion concerning one, resulting in praise, honour, and glory
3. splendour, brightness
   1. of the moon, sun, stars
   2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace
   3. majesty
      1. a thing belonging to God
      2. the kingly majesty which belongs to him as supreme ruler, majesty in the sense of the absolute perfection of the deity
      3. a thing belonging to Christ 3c
   4. the kingly majesty of the Messiah 3c
   5. the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ; the majesty
      1. of the angels 3c
   6. as apparent in their exterior brightness
4. a most glorious condition, most exalted state
   1. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
   2. the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

No Spiritual Body there..Just Glory Glory Glory

[restornu]

Doug.

where you will be after you die until the resurrection?

***

Ecclesiastes 12

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[RnMomof7]

RNMom, you seem to have a personal vendetta against Doug, and I remember not long ago when you were floating between Churches and were considering one that was into keeping the law, and I was concerned for you.

drstevej, you may not be aware of it, but Doug was searching for Christ when he began posting here and later he made his decision and was baptized. Hopefully after that, his idea of humor has changed since becoming a child of God, and one who will eventually be in God’s kingdom.

No I like Doug alot..there is no vendetta . If a doctrinal debate makes you uncomfortable i am sorry .

This is about what constitutes a Christian ..the Bodily resurrection and the reality of hell and the trinity constitute a professing Christian .

This is America and everyone is free to have what ever religion they desire. Christen or not. But if you are going to present yourself as a Christian and promote a non Christian doctrine then you have to expect there will be debate.

This is probably the least important error of the Armstrong cult . But it is an interesting give and take..

I am sorry JH but Doug has a different god and a different Jesus than Christians do. He has a biunity god among other non standard doctrine

[DouglasKC]

I really believe many of the attacks have become personal, and I don’t understand why. He has contributed many enjoyable post, and is an essential part of our discussions here. He deserves your respect and love if you have any real truths to share, not what you’ve demonstrated lately.

I'd settle for respect. :-)

Thanks for the kind words Jim.

[RnMomof7]

Ecclesiastes 12

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


Thats the body where will his soul be ?

[restornu]

Ecclesiastes 12 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Thats the body where will his soul be ?

Huh?

The body returns to dust!

and the spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave it.

[RnMomof7]

Hey Doug I respect you **Even if you are wrong*:>)

You stand your ground , I just wish you would consider that maybe, just maybe you are reading the scriptures to support your belief and not reading the scriptures in context and taken as a whole.

[CARepubGal]

Silly question: what is Biunity? I understand the difference between trinitarian and tritheist quite well but this is confusing.

Thanks!

[malakhi]

But if you are going to present yourself as a Christian and promote a non Christian doctrine then you have to expect there will be debate.

Are you seriously suggesting that that your own favorite collection of doctrines comprises the "true" definition of "Christian"? Catholics believe in Purgatory, prayer to saints, petrine primacy, the doctrine of the Real Presence, etc. Not to mention that their concept of grace is different. Does this make them "non Christian"?

[RnMomof7]

The body returns to dust!

and the spirit (soul) shall return unto God who gave


Would it surprise you if we agreed on this? I am just trying to find out what Doug believes

[malakhi]

Now that was a very respectful post! ;o)

maybe, just maybe you are reading the scriptures to support your belief

We all do this, Terry.

[RnMomof7]

what is Biunity?

Dougs doctrine holds that the Holy Spirit is not a member of the trinity ..He has a two part god. father and son ..thus the BI Unity not the TRInity

[DouglasKC]

Doug you are the one that has a reading comprehension problem

Okay.

You want glory to mean a spiritual Body ..but that is not what the Greek word for Glory means,

I realize what glory means. You're missing my point.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:5 Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before the world was made.(Good News Bible)

Now the closest definition that fits this verse for "glory" (from your own post) would be:

"a most glorious condition, most exalted state of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth "

Now tell me, what does that mean? To me, it says that Jesus is entering into the most glorious condition, the condition that deserved the highest praise, a return to the same conditions he had with God the father.

As I've already shown you countless times, God the father is spirit. Paul said that Christ became a life giving spirit, with a spiritual body, after the resurrection. In order to be exhalted with the same glory, Jesus has to have the SAME CONDITION he had with the father. So if he was flesh and bone AFTER the resurrection, then (by the position you hold) he must be flesh and bone BEFORE the incarnation. If he was spirit and had a spiritual body AFTER the resurrection, then he had to have been spirit and had a spiritual body BEFORE the incarnation or the glory would not be the same. You miss the meaning of almost every scripture because you read them with Armstrong eyes ..completely without discernment. BTW I think it is funny you had to use the worse translation ever done to make your point..and even with that you can not change the meaning of Glory ,,

[RnMomof7]

We all do this, Terry

I would say that to a certain extent that is true. But I would hope that we do not always take our prejustices with us, or else there could be no spiritual growth ,we would simply mark time till we croak :>)))

[CARepubGal]

:shakes head: What is the role of the Holy Ghost in that doctrine? Comic relief? < /end sarcasm>

[DouglasKC]

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Thats the body where will his soul be ?

A "soul" is biblically any breathing creature that has life. Animals were created with souls (nephesh, Genesis 1:20). A living soul becomes a dead soul when he/she or it dies.

[malakhi]

What is the role of the Holy Ghost in that doctrine?

In Jewish belief, the Shekhinah, or Holy Spirit, is God's active Presence in the world. It is not seen as a separate person. Douglas adds to this a belief in the divinity of Jesus as the Son of God. He believes in the Holy Spirit, he just doesn't see it as a separate person in the Godhead.