Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'm willing to listen and learn. Really.
Because if it isn't Mary's egg then she is much less important in the RC gospel. Ironic that this whole Easter thing is about egg's isn't it. Could it be.......hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
That is like a few baptist leaders getting together and saying, well since it isn't in scripture, we put ours heads together and came up with what we believe God forgot to tell us. Now, we'll pass then down, thru the generations and expect every church including the catholics to abide by it. You comfortable with that?
. No way could God have made him like He did Adam, huh? Why is this point not coming across? Is there any NC out there who can help me make this point?
Why? I can think for myself.
Cindy, I ask and state quite clearly the idea that if Jesus was not related to us, then He was not "one of us." And if He is not "one of us" then He is not Our Redeemer. Do you understand this argument? What difficulties do you have with it? Do you think that God Incarnating Jesus from existing, fallen humanity is different from "making" Jesus from scratch, like Adam was?
Haven't you figured it out yet? We are talking about two different issues. You are fighting for something you truly believe and I am just saying you may be right but I can't back it up with scripture and it really doesn't matter to me how God made it happen. You know, Like His will be done?
Chapter and verse, please.
I'm not saying God couldn't do it as you suggest. If God had wanted, He could have formed Jesus out of clay(dust, dirt, etc.) as He did Adam. But He didn't. He formed Jesus by the Holy Spirit 'overshadowing' Mary and having her conceive Him in her womb.
Didn't you check out Galatians 4:4? It says Christ was born of a woman. Note one of the scriptures you use is the one from Matthew where Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
John the Baptist was born of a woman and Jesus was born of a woman. Why do you labor so hard to deny Scripture?
No, it does not! It says He was made -- or, He came to pass -- of a woman.
I would think that Jesus had to be physically from Mary. He had to have human flesh or else his sacrifice would have been meaningless."
Thanks for this. It is, literally, an answer to a prayer.
I've only brought up the objection about 10 times in the last week. Nonetheless, I welcome the opportunity to quit the sniping and actually engage the idea.
So. The position is put forth that Jesus is both fully man and fully God. As such He bridges the gap between man and God that was created when Adam and Eve sinned and were thrown out of Eden. This broke their complete fellowship with God.
All of the men since Adam and Eve have likewise lacked this complete fellowship with God.
Christ, by becoming man and offering himself as the Perfect Sacrifice on the Cross, unites man and God. This makes mankind able, through Jesus, to become holy and perfect in the eyes of God.
If Jesus were just God, His Crucifixion would be an illusion. It would have nothing to do with us, since He was not a man.
If Jesus was just man, He could not offer the Infinite Sacrifice required to satisfy God's justice. the gap could not be bridged.
So Jesus has to be man and God.
Now, since man, descended from Adam, is broken, it is we who need to be lifted up. Christ unites His humanity to His divinity on the Cross to make humanity the recipient of His Salvation.
If Jesus was, instead, some newly created "man" not related to Adam, there would be several difficulties.
First of all, the "mankind" who suffered on the Cross would have had no reason to make atonement. The humanity of Jesus substituted collectively for all of our humanity and its sin. If Jesus was not truly a man like us, then there would be no justice in hanging him from a tree.
It would be like God took Adam, before the fall, and Crucified him.
Secondly, if we are not related to Jesus, how can we benefit from His Actions? He took "humanity" up with Him and received God's favor. But this was not the broken, fallen humanity, but some other humanity that was not in need of redemption.
The bottom line is that if Jesus did not take on our actual humanity, then He did not redeem it.
SD
Sorry, I should have pinged you on #49,085.
You're an idiot.
It's not about Mary's "egg," it's about Mary's humanity.We don't know or care if God used Mary's egg. It is about usuing her humanity, her genes.
SD
Isn't this precious. The guy who actually is responsible for starting all the sniping wants us all to quit now.
SD
It's called humor, my boy. A little turnabout to tease the crowd with what we are looking to see you do. Something to sort of underscore the point of a Catholic disputing Catholic scholarship because a Christian was using it against him in debate. It's immensly funny to me. Still waiting on your dissertation btw.
Poor baby. Didn't I already say I was sorry? First I offend you and now I hurt your feeling. sigh. I was just ticked off about your "you think Jesus is a woman",remark.
When was I spinning? Even better, what questions of yours have I refused to answer?
Don't play the victim. You were twisting my words about and you know it:') When was the last time you were baptized?
It was meant to be funny but you are right. I would appreciate you guys pointing it out to me, if/when I stray from scripture. Thanks for bringing this to my attention:')
Yes, and you have yet to back it up with any teaching from Scripture.
Thanks (again) for your thoughts, your words and your specifications on the matter of what constitutes a man.
Nonetheless, I remain willing to learn from His.
Ok guys here's your chance for a GRAND SLAM! A slow one right down the middle. :)
BigMack
That is like a few baptist leaders getting together and saying, well since it isn't in scripture, we put ours heads together and came up with what we believe God forgot to tell us. Now, we'll pass then down, thru the generations and expect every church including the catholics to abide by it. You comfortable with that?
All I said is that this is a good example of how Sacred Tradition helps us to understand Scripture.
You don't have to agree, and you obviously don't view your church in that kind of fashion.
I was not trying to debate, only to show you that this is one of those things. The Catholic Church has always understood the Incarnation in this way.
Haven't you figured it out yet? We are talking about two different issues. You are fighting for something you truly believe and I am just saying you may be right but I can't back it up with scripture and it really doesn't matter to me how God made it happen. You know, Like His will be done?
I know you like to limit yourself to what you can understand from Scripture. But is there really a penalty for thinking about things? If we take one idea and examine it, and see what implications it holds, we may find that it contradicts Scripture elsewhere. Then we would know that the idea is false.
That surely isn't against the Bible, is it? To test ideas and see if they contradict?
SD
Yeah, and right after he posted his request, he declared biblewonk an "idiot."
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