The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

In fact, Easter was celebrated hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus Christ.

I expect this will be controversial, but I have to post this image that I found, along with the accompanying caption.

[SoothingDave]

Re 47245

You can't be saying that Mary never sinned? I have to be misunderstanding here .

Yes, Mary never sinned. She was born free of the consequences of Original Sin and she also avoided any personal sin during her life.

(These are not the same thing, note that Adam and Eve had no Original Sin, yet they managed to sin.)

This ability to avoid sin is not of Mary's own power, but rather because God chose her for her role. She was saved from sin by the power of Jesus Christ, from the very moment of her conception.

SD

[malakhi]

Maybe the name needs to change

Someone last week used the term "Resurrection Sunday".

[Havoc]

It's far from necromancy. Praying to peole in heaven (saints) who have great spiritual grace to help pray for us is simply smart.

Dumb- simply dumb. Do you not know the scriptures? Ecclessiastes tells us that that All people, righteous and evil alike share a common fate - bodily death. It further states that after death they have nothing more to do with anything that occurs here - nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9:2 All [things come] alike to all: [there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [is] the good, so [is] the sinner; [and] he that sweareth, as [he] that feareth an oath.
[3] This [is] an evil among all [things] that are done under the sun, that [there is] one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart while they live, and after that [they go] to the dead. [4] For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. [5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

To bottom line this - it means that not only can they not hear your prayers, they are incapable of acting on them. This completely invalidates your assertions. And I would add that attempting to contact the dead in request for intervention is in fact part of necromancy and does so qualify as necromancy. You should learn about what you're discussing before making such statements. And I do mean beyond looking at a dictionary entry or a Catholic talking point.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If some of you don't recognize this holiday, that is ok, but how about giving us that do a break.

You're free to do whatever you want. We just report, you decide. :-)

[SoothingDave]

I expect this will be controversial, but I have to post this image that I found, along with the accompanying caption.

C'mon now. If that were Diana being crowned with flowers it would be evidence of the pagan origins of Catholicism's Mary worship.

Since it's about Jesus, this has no meaning whatsoever.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Now, at about this point, you're about ready to say something like, "well, yeah, but that's just reciting repetitious prayers. Don't ya ever just talk to Him?"

Try to understand, I find these practices help lift my soul to Him, they quiet me, reminding me I'm in God's presence. Then, I am ready to lay my particular cares and concerns before Him.

Frankly, I did get stuck on the "rote" part. I accept you have an excellent reason for doing so and, to find fault, would be just plain wrong.

I am sure, I hope, you are aware your prayer life is highly unusual among all Christians and cannot be assumed to be the "standard" for the entire group.

Bless you.

[SoothingDave]

Have you heard of the New Testament?

Believers who die do not go to Abraham's bosoms, but rather go to live with God in Heaven.

I would think you knew this.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Re 47249

Dave , you want to know why I can't post from work anymore?

Because you got in trouble for laughing out loud at what I say?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It's lasted longer than your fundamentalism, or any of the 30,000 Protestant religions.

Go here to see that you have your facts wrong.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/756707/posts

[malakhi]

or any of the 30,000 Protestant religions.

This number is demonstrably a wild exaggeration.

30,000 Protestant Denominations?

[SoothingDave]

Re 47258

Next time you see the flowers in front of the image of a saint recall that wreathe that is placed before the tombs of the Unknown, or even the flowers on a mether's grave. It has the same meaning

I hear what you are saying but to me it seems to be more than a remembrance. It would be like placing flowers in the arms of a statue of a mother or soldier, kneeling on an alter before them, and praying to someone who has died, which I think somewhere in the Bible, God tells us not to do. I'm looking for it.

Go to Washington and see the people leaving flowers and kneeling in honor of their fallen loved ones at the Vietnam memorial. Heck, go to any cemetery.

People leave offerings of flowers. This doesn't equate to worship.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

It's in your name and in your actions.

We strive not to get personal and call each other names in here. I know you've only been in here since April 7th but so far you've called me a dunce, arrogant and ignorant. Quite frankly I'm surprised nobody has called you on it. Even the other catholics on thread. It disappoints me.

[SoothingDave]

Re 47259

Yall seem to think I'm bashing Mary. That is absolutely incorrect. I have repeatedly stated I have the highest respect for her (the mother of Jesus) for what she did but I don't accept that she is part of the trinity. Show me scripture where I'm wrong.

Again, who said that she was "part of the Trinity"?

Show me where any Catholic has said such a thing.

I find it interesting that, even while you are in the midst of a discussion with others about whether the "saved" are "perfect" or not (and coming to the conclusion that they are, but shouldn't mention it cause it might confuse people) you insist on equating a sinless human with divinity.

Is that really what you think? That a human being who is free from sin is a god?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

I wouldn't know. But is it your contention ownership of a Bible is a prerequisite for either salvation or a relationship with Our Lord?

It might help to have some familiarity with the Bible when making dogmatic statements about it.

Further, do you think it is possible to study Scripture, as did the Bereans, without access to a Bible.

The short answer would be "no, ownership of the Bible is not a prerequisite". It certainly helps though.

[SoothingDave]

Re 47264

The pontiff did say there were some special circumstances in which other Christians could take communion from a Roman Catholic priest to meet the need for "eternal salvation."

I pulled this statement from the article "The Pope Cracks down on Lax Practices" Could you all interprete for me?

Sure.

In an emergency situation (near death, that is), a Christian who professes a belief in the Real Presence in the Sacrament may receive it from a Catholic priest. Even if they are not a Catholic.

Note that this primarily refers to the Orthodox, though some Anglicans and even Lutherans might apply.

Likewise, if I found myself near death and a Catholic priest was not available, I could seek out the services of an Orthodox priest (if he would serve me).

SD

[ksen]

The impact here is that Donatus was preaching that it was wrong/evil to knuckle under to the Emperor and worship pagan gods in order to save their necks. This put them at odds with the other sects who in turn prattled off to the emperor and complained.

So they pushed the ancient version of the Abuse button.

Troublemakers.......

[malakhi]

There was no heaven until Christ died.

Again, from the Douay-Rheims:

And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11 -- 4 Kings 2:11 in many Catholic bibles)

[OLD REGGIE]

I know you were joking. And, frankly, in general I would agree. But just out of curiosity, consider these questions. First, in which nation -the United States or Mexico- is the per capita rate of Bible-ownership higher? Now, in which nation is the abortion rate higher? (Hint: Abortion is illegal in Mexico.)

Just something interesting to consider.

Forgetting, for a while, that the United States is a pluralistic society, why don't you compare the birth rate in Ireland or Italy with the United States. Now tell me how that low birth rate is attained.

IOW, your question has no validity.

[Havoc]

Yes, Mary never sinned. She was born free of the consequences of Original Sin and she also avoided any personal sin during her life.

That isn't what scripture says. To the contrary, it says she was a sinner. But then What the Apostles reported has never been an obstacle for your clergy making up what they like..