The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Havoc]

I'll try and give you some input when I have more time but I sure appreciate your study on the matter. It was very interesting. Wonder what he ever did to deserve sainthood? :-)

Thank you. And in answer to your question - nothing. There is a British TV show named for what was going on "keeping up appearances". The actions taken by the errant sects in abusing Donatus who was in the right necessitated the revisionism and all the flourishes that go with it. The more bold the lie, the more likely it is to be bought. It should shock no one that the only source from which it is known what the Donatists were presumably teaching is the group that had them wiped out. The mistake they made is that they apparently didn't have access to change the secular record or never got around to it.. Constantine was wrong from ignorance. The church was wrong due to purposed rebellion against the word of God - purposed in that they largely were not of a mind to be counted amoung those thrown into the fiery furnace if you'll forgive the dark humor in the allusion. The people weren't stupid, they were untaught and gullible. And given enough information, most of their leaders would have been swinging from tall trees for this brazen injustice. With the level of political intrigue going on at the time, I'm amazed Constantine didn't murder more people than he did to keep the threat against his throne quelled. And in the end, the institution he gave birth to through his errors defrauded even him. That, to me, is divine irony if not justice. At the very least, the croc ate him last.

[OLD REGGIE]

You proved my point. Paul uses tradition as well as scripture.

You missed my point. There is no mention of new tradition.

Peace be with you.

Thanks. The same with you.

[OLD REGGIE]

Oh no! Another book. :') What's this about the rock following them? I'll have to read up on this. Guess I missed it 1st, 2nd, 3rd or maybe even the 4th time I read this passage:')

So did I. Frankly, I don't think it is relevant. I dredged it up to show there was a reference to "rock", "water", and "follow".

I intend to spend 0 time analyzing it.

[OLD REGGIE]

JHarvad, you still have not answered my question; does it make sense that Jesus was born into a sinful womb when it could be perfect?

Why do you continue to insist we use your judgement of what "makes sense" instead of God's?

Romans 3:
[10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

[OLD REGGIE]

I haven't bothered to consider the implications yet for the catholics. I was too stunned when I pieced it all together to even care. So have fun with it - bat it around for a while. And gimme some input if you would.

Very interesting. I have been attacked for claiming there was no big C Catholic Church prior to Constantine. Also, there is no record that Constantine ever became a Christian. The "deathbed" conversion is a story without proof.

I thought you had disappeared. Stay around for a while.

[RobbyS]

What you don't like is the what Cyprian and Origen say does not fit your theory. All this "lies all lies" approach amounts to is a dismissing of virtually all extant historical evidence in favor odf speculation. Reminds me of the Jesus Seminar approach to the Gospels.

[OLD REGGIE]

Thank you for your time trying to prove your point. Please do not write that large of a comment back if any. However, I will believe that Mary was ever virgin for two reasons. First, Jesus Apostles were often referred to as brothers (one of those words that may depend on which Bible you have, friend, cousin, etc.). Second, at the crucifixion, Jesus told John "behold your mother," and John took her into his home. Now I know Joseph was dead at this time, but where were Jesus' siblings when all of this happened?

It's interesting that you asked a multi-faceted question and then complain when it is answered. Is it possible you are upset that you might be required to think?

As for the word "cousin" there absoloutely is a distinction in Greek and Latin.

Pay attention, assuming your attention span is sufficient.

Collosians 4: (RSV)
[10] Aristar'chus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions -- if he comes to you, receive him),

Notice the word "cousin".

(Latin Vulgate)
10 salutat vos Aristarchus concaptivus meus et Marcus consobrinus Barnabae de quo accepistis mandata si venerit ad vos excipite illum

I'll save you the trouble. The word "consorbinus" means "cousin"! Nothing else. Not "brother". Not "brethren". "Cousin" and nothing else.

Are you still with me? Forget the play on words with "cousin".

". . . where were Jesus' siblings when all of this happened?

John was the only Apostle there. (Where was Peter? Still in hiding!)

His brothers didn't believe in him.

John 7
[5] For even his brothers did not believe in him.

Who else could Jesus have entrusted His mother to?

[OLD REGGIE]

It is pretty sad that fear of God and prayers to Him and the saints (INCLUDING MARY) have sustained the Catholic Church for 2,000 years and has not been surpassed in population since.

You are wrong on two counts:

1. Mere numbers mean nothing.
2. There are more Muslims than Catholics.

You should check your logic and your facts.

[DouglasKC]

I'm embarassed, it was a joke, remember the one where the two psychiatrist passed on the street, and the one said, good morning, and the other one thought to himself. Now I wonder what he meant by that?

lol...I figured that it was some kind of joke...but wasn't quite sure.

[DouglasKC]

YehhhRight

Wow talk about airing dirty laundry...that picture of me is about as gross as can be!

[DouglasKC]

Ok. I deserved that.lol.

You're durn tooting ya did.... :-)

[DouglasKC]

Constantine acted because the inability of the sects to agree and deal with their problems in any acceptable fashion was threatening the unity of the empire. There was no unifying structure or central point of control, nor was there a final authority respected by any of the Bishops to turn to in this. In effect, Constantine put his Foot down.

This is exacly my take on it.

A lot of questionable theology (to me at least) came out of this general time period, including the abolishement of the sabbath and other biblical holy days. Sadly many protestants cling to the teaching of the Roman Church on this and other topics.

Thanks for your efforts...

[restornu]

Hi

I like a little history lesson.

1 Did you have this kind of thread on the old system before we changed over to 50 post per thread?

2.I have seen the name angelo a year or so ago so now I am confused.

3.I always like to follow a pattern or a timeline, as in real history.

Timeline of occurrences is vitile to me in understand unfolding events.

Thank you for your time-

[DouglasKC]

1 Did you have this kind of thread on the old system before we changed over to 50 post per thread?

Hi restornu...I'm not sure Malakhi will be around for a while. I believe there was 1 (2?) other very long threads under the new format. Before that there were many many other threads titled Christian Chronicles Thread 2, Thread 3, etc. The first article was posted by Sinkspur.

If you go into the News forum (the main forum) and do a search to include ALL of the terms "Christian Chronicle Thread" you'll come up with a bunch of the old threads.

The very first post on the very first thread was from Becky (or Big Mack) and said:

"These two groups have nothing in common to talk about anyway, so what's the point?"

2.I have seen the name angelo a year or so ago so now I am confused.

Angelo just recently had his screen name changed to Malakhi...they are the same person. Malakhi sounds much more butch though. :-)

[DouglasKC]

3.I always like to follow a pattern or a timeline, as in real history.

Here is a link to the last "Christian Chronicles thread. I think we had to abandon it after 37,682 posts because it was screwing up:

Christian Chronicles Last Thread

Here is the link to the first thread in the new format:

Christian Chronicles First Thread, New Format"

This thread contains links to all the previous threads of the Christian Chronicles.

Enjoy!

[restornu]

Thank you I did track that down all ready I am asking something else. This I know!

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Many Christians are unaware of the origins of Easter, which is actually a pagan festival held in honor of idols. In fact, Easter was celebrated hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus Christ. It wasn't until at least 300 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the establishment of his church that the celebration of his resurrection began to be intermingled with the pagan practices of Easter. You should know the truth.

Origins of the Word "Easter" and the Goddess it Represents. "Easter" is derived from "Eostre," the pagan Anglo-Saxon goddess, and/or "Eostare," the Norse pagan festival of spring. When God gave the law to the Israelites in the Old Testament, he clearly instructed them not to even utter the name of other gods (Exodus 23:13). Aphrodite, Asherah, Ashtoreth, Astarte, Diana, Eostre, Ianna, Ishtar, Isis, Ostara, Semiramis, Venus . . . call her what you will, but she is one and the same--a false goddess, an idol, worshiped by pagans. And God declares that she is detestable. Asherah is mentioned in the Old Testament quite frequently (Exodus 34:13; Deuteronomy 7:5; Deuteronomy 12:2-4; Deuteronomy 16:21; Judges 6:25-30; 1 Kings 14:15-23; 1 Kings 15:13; 1 Kings 16:33; 1 Kings 18:19; 2 Kings 13:6; 2 Kings 17:7-16; 2 Kings 18:4; 2 Kings 21:3-7; 2 Kings 23:4-15; 2 Chronicles 14:3; 2 Chronicles 15:16; 2 Chronicles 17:6; 2 Chronicles 19:3; 2 Chronicles 24:18; 2 Chronicles 31:1; 2 Chronicles 34:3-7; Isaiah 17:8; Isaiah 27:9; Jeremiah 17:2; Micah 5:14). Ashtoreth (the Babylonian goddess of the woods and nature) is also mentioned by name in the Bible (Judges 2:11-13; 1 Samuel 7:3; 1 Kings 11:5, 33). In every instance, she is an idol which greatly angers God. Inanna, the Sumerian patron of the temple prostitutes (also considered the merciful mother who intercedes with the gods on behalf of her worshipers), is represented with a star inscribed in a circle. There are several scriptures which clearly show that worship of any of the celestial elements (sun, moon or stars) is forbidden by God (Deuteronomy 17:2-5; 2 Kings 21:3-7; 2 Kings 23:4-15; Ezekiel 8:15-16). Ishtar [pronounced "Aes-tar"] (the Babylonian/Chaldean goddess of love and war) and Semiramis (an Assyrian goddess) were both known as the "Queen of Heaven." And the "Queen of Heaven" is specifically mentioned in the Bible (Jeremiah 7:18; Jeremiah 44:19, 25).

What, other than the obvious connection of the words "Easter" and "Eostre" does this goddess have to do with the modern celebration of Easter? Plenty.

Easter's connection with spring and nature. Diana (the Ephesian goddess of sex, fertility, virginity and motherhood) was said to be the source of nature. Eostre (an Anglo-Saxon/Teutonic goddess) was the goddess of the sunrise and spring. Ostara (a Norse/Saxon goddess) was the maiden goddess of spring.

Origins of Hares (Bunnies) and Eggs. According to Teutonic myth, the hare was once a bird whom Eostre changed into a four-footed creature. Thus, it can also lay eggs. The hare is also the sacred companion and sacrificial victim of Eostre. Astarte (a Phoenician/Syrian goddess), on the other hand, was believed to have been hatched from a huge egg which fell into the Euphrates.

Origins of Good Friday. Did you ever wonder why Good Friday is recognized as the day Jesus died and Sunday as the day he arose but yet had trouble explaining how he could thus be buried for three days and three nights? (Matthew 12:40; Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31; Mark 9:31; Mark 10:34) The answer is simple: He didn't actually die on "Good Friday." The Chaldeans offered cakes to Ishtar on the equivalent of the day we know as Good Friday. When the established church wanted to appease the paganistic people in order to "convert" them to Christianity, they moved the dates accordingly. Jesus actually died on the day of Preparation of Passover Week, which that year occurred on Wednesday (John 19:14, 31-42). Thursday was the Sabbath of the Passover. Friday, Christ was still in the tomb. Saturday was the "regular" Sabbath. Jesus arose after the Saturday Sabbath was concluded, which was the first day of the week, the day we know as Sunday (Mark 16:9; John 20:1). For further clarification of the days concerning Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, see Matthew 27:50-28:7; Mark 15:25-16:6; Luke 23:44-24:8; John 19:14-20:17.

Origins of Lent. The word "lent" is of Anglo-Saxon origin meaning "spring." Lent developed from the pagan celebration of weeping, fasting, and mourning for 40 days over the death of Tammuz (one day for each year of his life). Tammuz (the son/husband of the Babylonian idol Ishtar) was killed by a wild boar and then allegedly resurrected. This mourning of Tammuz is specifically prophesied by Ezekiel in the Bible and is characterized by God Himself as being detestable (Ezekiel 8:13-15).

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Sorry Doug. My previous post was meant for all. Didn't mean to single you out. :-)

[CindyDawg]

Sigh. If some of you don't recognize this holiday, that is ok, but how about giving us that do a break. Do yall think something good can come of something bad? Maybe the name needs to change (any of you that celebrate easter have any ideas?) but to tell the story of the resurrection, feast and have fun playing a game of finding eggs while keeping your thoughts on the Son doesn't seem pagen to me. I do draw the line at pretending there is an easter bunny though caz I think children should be told the truth.

[CindyDawg]

CD