Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries.

Reuters ^ | August 9, 2007 | Philip Pullella

[kawhill]

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.

[Old Yeller]

Ephesians 2:8-9

[SaveFerris]

👍👍👍

✝️🙏🛐

[Antoninus]

It's. That. Simple.

The Fathers and Mothers of the ancient Church thought otherwise. But I know -- the novel doctrines developed 1,500 to 1,900 years later based on the personal interpretations of Scripture are the true ones.

[MayflowerMadam]

“IF the shed blood of Christ is insufficient to forgive a person of ALL of their sins....then nothing else can.”

Well said.

[ealgeone]

The mothers of the church?? Isn’t diversity wonderful.

[ealgeone]

E1: >>IF the shed blood of Christ is insufficient to forgive a person of ALL of their sins....then nothing else can.<<

Some are counting on mercy/forgiveness as a free pass while ignoring justice, including just punishment.

IF one were to read the NT....Romans in particular, one would quickly discern all have sinned and will face punishment. No exclusions for anyone born of man.

The Good News though is Christ died for our sins. He is the propitiation for our sins.

No other sacrifice is sufficient or even comes close.

Those trusting in scapulars, miraculous medals, enough "good works", etc to somehow avoid the hell fire are sorely in error.

The scapular and mm actually condemn the person wearing them or trusting in them as it's a rejection of the Gospel.

Will there be just punishment for those wearing/trusting in those.....you betcha.

[Antoninus]

The mothers of the church?? Isn’t diversity wonderful.

What would you call Saints Perpetua and Felicitas? Fathers? That would be pretty woke. They were the ones I was referring to as "Mothers of the Church." Both were martyrs. Both were new mothers. Perpetua wrote the diary of her time before martyrdom with her own hand. Read it.

It's not "diversity" to call something by its name.

[Antoninus]

The scapular and mm actually condemn the person wearing them or trusting in them as it's a rejection of the Gospel.

You say that on no authority but your own. The fact that the early Christians kept and treasured relics would probably be scandalous to you as well.

[ealgeone]

Mothers of the church is a new one I hadn’t heard of before.

[ealgeone]

>>The scapular and mm actually condemn the person wearing them or trusting in them as it's a rejection of the Gospel.<

You say that on no authority but your own.

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. Exodus 20:4

We could discuss the Golden Calf that was made and worshiped.

There's lots of examples to chose from.

The fact that the early Christians kept and treasured relics would probably be scandalous to you as well.

This isn't a relic we're discussing.

This is something an apparition gave to St Simon Stock around 1215 IIRC with specific promises IF one wore the thing correctly.

It's a complete abandonment of the Gospel.

And I take it based on your reply you wear one or both of these??

[Cronos]

It's not a game.

The game is any belief in the pre-tribulation rapture fantasy.

As I said - The thief on the cross was an exception. Jesus clearly said that baptism was necessary for salvation.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Let's also be precise - a theology such as yours which arose in the 19th century, is false compared to the belief of early Christians as seen in the Didache - which matches the Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox faith

[Cronos]

Let's look at The Didache

Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup:

We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever..

And concerning the broken bread:

We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever..

But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs."

Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way:

We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy name's sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

That's pretty clear that the early Christians considered the Eucharist to be the true body and blood of Jesus

The only people in the first 1500 years who said the Eucharist was not the body and blood of Christ were Gnostics.

So your disbelief in the Eucharist comes from the Gnostics who also deny that Jesus died on the Cross -- is that your belief as well?

[ealgeone]

A pre-trib rapture belief is not a requirement for salvation. However, the things I noted are for the RC.

[Cronos]

Let's look at The Didache

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day. But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

Note that the early Christians met every Lord's Day i.e. the first day of the week.

NOT Sabbatarianism.

And note that they talk of the Sacrifice of the mass, which means they saw the Eucharist as partaking of the ONE Sacrifice of Jesus.

[Cronos]

a pre-tribulation rapture belief is anti-Christian. Jesus said very clearly that we are to endure to the end, not expect to be whisked away.

That is why pre-tribers do not have the endurance as say the Copts who werebeheaded in Libya

[Cronos]

You are cleansed of your sins by the blood of the lamb.

His blood does it and the final stage in that purification for those heading to heaven is called purgatory.

It’s. That. Simple.

[Cronos]

note what Ephesians 2:8-9 does say "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

"Have been" i.e. the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action.

the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8-9 is initial salvation

. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (cf. 1 Peter 1:8-9 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

, Phil. 2:12 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

) or the kind we will one day receive (cf. Rom. 13:11 The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed

, 1 Cor. 3:15 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the fla

mes., 5:5).

You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification.

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And note that Paul means WORKS OF THE LAW

His point is to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the Mosaic Law. Jews have no ability to boast in front of Gentiles of having a privileged relationship with God because they keep the Mosaic Law and its requirement of circumcision (cf. Romans 2:6-11, 17-21, 25-29, 3:21-22, 27-30).

[Antoninus]

We could discuss the Golden Calf that was made and worshiped.

We could also discuss the likenesses of cherubim which were carved atop the Ark of the Covenant.

No one considers a scapular an idol. And no one worships it. Literally no one.

[ealgeone]

>>We could discuss the Golden Calf that was made and worshiped.<<

We could also discuss the likenesses of cherubim which were carved atop the Ark of the Covenant.

You do understand the difference between the two....don't you??

One was a false idol the people made and worshiped....that was the Golden Calf.

The cherubim were instructed by God to be made and they were not worshiped.

See the difference.

No one considers a scapular an idol. And no one worships it. Literally no one.

You mean no Roman Catholic considers it an idol. Romans who wear this have substituted the promises of forgiveness from Christ for all sins for this idolatrous scapular given by an apparition whose message contradicts Scripture.

[Antoninus]

This is something an apparition gave to St Simon Stock around 1215 IIRC with specific promises IF one wore the thing correctly.

The use of the brown scapular is a pious belief of some Catholics. It is not a doctrine of the faith, nor is it enjoined upon anyone. It is, in fact, somewhat close to the false protestant belief of "once saved, always saved", the only difference being that you have to wear the scapular (as some believe) to assure yourself of salvation.

I wear the scapular but not because I believe it has any power of itself to save me from my sins. It is a penitential sacramental--something that's slightly irritating to wear to remind you that you are a Christian, you should act like one, and that suffering is your lot.