Posted on 05/08/2024 4:32:55 PM PDT by kawhill
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Roman Catholic Church has effectively buried the concept of limbo, the place where centuries of tradition and teaching held that babies who die without baptism went.
(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...
Paul says in 1 Cor. 1:17 that he was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel. So some claim this shows that baptism is not essential to salvation.
EXACTLY!
If baptism were essential for salvation and Paul didn’t baptize, then he’d be the biggest fraud on the planet.
First - limbo
limbus infantium was never a dogma/doctrine. Rather it was a simple "we don't know" to the question "what about the unbaptised who die in infancy?". It is never mentioned in the Catechism eitherThe closest you get to a teaching is THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED* which is a long-winded "we don't know, but we believe in God's mercy"
Second - purgatory -
that is a biblical belief - not in a PLACE, but the final stage of purification called purgatory.Purgatory, is nevertheless a self-evident concept in scripture.
- Nothing unclean can enter heaven. (Revelation 21:27)
- Jesus himself suggested that there was a possibility of forgiveness of sins "in the next life" (i.e., after death), except for those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 12:31-32)
- St. Paul tells us that every man's work will be put to the test; and that, if a righteous man's work fails the test, "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." (I Corinthians 3:15)
- Judas Maccabeus prayed for those men who had been killed in battle, who had apparently sinned by keeping small gods they had looted during the battle at Jamnia. He and his soldiers "praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge, who reveals what is hidden, and they begged him that this sin might be completely blotted out ... He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead. If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them. In his firm and devout conviction that all of God's faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died." Since those in heaven do not need forgiveness, and those in hell can't receive it, it only stands to reason he was praying for those who were otherwise righteous but needed to be cleansed of their remaining sin. (II Maccabees 12:38-45)
God says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven in Revelations 21:27. Jesus' sacrifice is what cleans us of the sin
Scripture notes that, on the Day of Judgement (your death) while your efforts in life and devotion to God may give you assurance of heaven with Christ’s blessings, any personal attachments to sin you may have must be purged, first.
(I Corinthians 3:11-15)Purgatory, contrary to pop culture and poor interpretation, is not a place but a state. A person in this state will be going to heaven. However, to complete their purity, God has them stand on heaven’s front porch, so to speak, to get the last bits of earthly grime off of their souls before entering.
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.Purgatory is also not a “second chance” in entering heaven. While Catholics believe that prayer may aid someone in the state of purgatory to be cleansed more readily so as to enter heaven soon (a word that does suggest some time goes by in a realm of timeless), such prayer cannot aid a soul found wanting by God and left outside of heaven, where hell is their only option for eternity.
Pontiac - the Catechism clearly says that Purgatory is not a place, but the final stage of sanctification.
It is not a place of (or stage of) punishment and suffering.
It is meant for those who are headed to heaven not those headed to hell. It is not a second-chance as basically the people undergoing the purification are headed to heaven, just need a bit more washing by the blood of the lamb to enter heaven
90% of what the Church reached was designed to elevate its priests/Bishops/Popes - they perverted the New Covenant to insinuate themselves between us and Jesus and claimed they were necessary if our souls were to be saved - then had us praying to dead mortal “saints” asking them to intercede for us when Jesus had given us a direct line.
The thief on the cross is the exception. Exceptions don’t make the rule.
Firstly, of course we don’t know IF the thief was a fallen disciple who could have been baptized. The Bible is completely silent on this, so we can’t assume either way.
NOTE that the good thief does know Jesus - he knew Jesus had done nothing wrong, that Jesus was Lord, and that Jesus was going to his kingdom after he died (something Jesus made clear only to his disciples—see Matthew 13:10-11). It is possible, then, that the thief on the cross was a fallen-away disciple (cf. Matt. 27:44) who repented on the cross. If so, it’s likely that he would have been baptized.
Furthermore, Jesus teaches us that Baptism incorporates the individual into the Body of Christ, and within the whole life of the Church an individual’s baptism must be accompanied by faith. The developing faith of the individual is empowered by the grace of baptism, and nurtured by the whole Church, but if the Christian faith is rejected or never positively affirmed, the baptism is not magically effective.
There is the baptism of blood and baptism of desire - the baptism of blood refers to those who were not baptised but martyred for Christ. The baptism of desire refers to those individuals with faith in Christ who would be baptized if they had the opportunity and if they truly understood what baptism means. It applies to those who, due to extraordinary circumstances, do not have access to water for baptism. But the New Testament indicates that what we call “baptism of desire” is the case for the Old Testament saints. Noah and his family were “saved through water” in the flood, (2 Pet. 2:5) and the Hebrew children were baptized “into Moses in the cloud and the Red Sea” (1 Cor. 10:2). This suggests that baptism of desire may also extend to those who have pre-Christian faith or to non-Christians who have faith according to the level of their knowledge, but have never heard the Christian gospel.
It may also apply to those who have faith in Christ, but have not been baptized because they truly and sincerely (because of false teaching received in goodwill) do not believe that baptism is necessary. Even in these cases, however, it should be understood that the Church teaches that such individuals “may” be saved, not that they are saved.
THis.
BASS!
In I Peter 18-19, he writes (about the Christ); "Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison"
Who are these spirits? What is this prison?
(I'm being "biblical". Help me with this.)
LOL....RCs make this argument as it doesn't fit their false theology.
Firstly, of course we don’t know IF the thief was a fallen disciple who could have been baptized. The Bible is completely silent on this, so we can’t assume either way.
Again....more RC speculation in an attempt to justify their false theology.
There is the baptism of blood and baptism of desire - the baptism of blood refers to those who were not baptised but martyred for Christ. The baptism of desire refers to those individuals with faith in Christ who would be baptized if they had the opportunity and if they truly understood what baptism means. It applies to those who, due to extraordinary circumstances, do not have access to water for baptism. But the New Testament indicates that what we call “baptism of desire” is the case for the Old Testament saints. Noah and his family were “saved through water” in the flood, (2 Pet. 2:5) and the Hebrew children were baptized “into Moses in the cloud and the Red Sea” (1 Cor. 10:2). This suggests that baptism of desire may also extend to those who have pre-Christian faith or to non-Christians who have faith according to the level of their knowledge, but have never heard the Christian gospel.
Again, more false theology from the Roman Catholic to justify their false theology.
This suggests that baptism of desire may also extend to those who have pre-Christian faith or to non-Christians who have faith according to the level of their knowledge, but have never heard the Christian gospel.
*****
From the CCC:
"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."
*****
This suggests the Roman Catholic has departed from the Word.
Non-Christians who have faith according to their knowledge but have never heard the Christian gospel?????
What kind of nonsense is that?
The Bible makes no such allowances as Rome does.
It opens to the door to universalism.
Even in these cases, however, it should be understood that the Church teaches that such individuals “may” be saved, not that they are saved.
Except the Word tells us we can know we are saved....something not advanced by Roman Catholicism.
I tell ya.....Roman Catholicism is a horrible way to live. You never know if you've committed a "mortal" sin....you have zero assurance of anything. No wonder many Roman Catholics have turned to idols such as the scapular or miraculous medal.
Imagine....trusting or appealing to a man-made object because an apparition told them to do so to avoid the hell fire.
It's a complete rejection of the Bible and the forgiveness offered by Christ.
it depends on which group calling themselves “evangelicals” — the theology is all over the map.
Just like “pentecostals” - we have the Oneness Pentecostals who reject the Trinity, we have various beliefs under the umbrella “evangelical”
So you’re saying those not baptized by water cannot enter the kingdom? What of the man on the cross? Is he in purgatory? Paradise?
What of the concept of a Loving God?
...”whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.”
I don’t see “unless he’s not baptized”
Purgatory is a little Hell, burning off your sins. Limbo is nothingness, nowhere.
Since the Blood of Christ has washed away the believer's sins, there's no need to burn them off.
There is no "getting cleaned up" of so called "little sins" to have entrance to Heaven.
If His blood doesn't do it, then nothing else can.
It's. That. Simple.
Some are counting on mercy/forgiveness as a free pass while ignoring justice, including just punishment.
Jorge Bergoglio is a prime example.
The thief on the cross was an exception. Jesus clearly said that baptism was necessary for salvation.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.Let's also be precise - a theology such as yours which arose in the 19th century, is false compared to the belief of early Christians as seen in the Didache - which matches the Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox faith
Immaculate conception.
Holy days of obligation (which may or may not be obligatory);
the assumption of Mary;
while not a dogma Rome actively supports the scapular as a means to avoid the hell fire. You don’t wear one on this no you?
You really don’t want to hold the Didache to support your claims.
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