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How Will the World Explain the Rapture?
Rev310.net ^ | 4/16/23 | Scott Savell

Posted on 04/19/2023 4:52:54 AM PDT by Roman_War_Criminal

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

The Rapture of the Church. It is Christianity's most preposterous belief. The very idea that a Savior from the sky is coming to get a particular group of people, that dead bodies will be raised back to life, and those alive at that moment will be changed into a new body suitable for heaven before being snatch away from this earth seems more like the work of science fiction than unadulterated biblical truth. But this is exactly what the Bible teaches. Jesus promised His followers that he would return for them at some future time (see John 14:1-3). The Apostle Paul described this still future event when he wrote, "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians4:15-17).

The purpose for this article is not to defend the doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church. I'll save that for a future article. In this musing I want to consider how the world might go about explaining the disappearance of millions of people worldwide. Some explanation will most certainly be offered and I suspect Satan will, in a very direct but deceptive way, join in on the explanation. If millions of people have disappeared and you are reading this article in your search to figure out what has happened, please don't let anyone deceive you. The explanation the world will offer you will not be true. And the deceptive intervention from those who might seem other worldly will be just as false, no matter how 'miraculously convincing' their explanation appears.

The Rapture of the Church will occur at some future time just prior to the Return of Christ to this earth. This earth-shaking event will occur at seven or more years before Jesus' Second Coming. Since nearly every prophetic trend pointing to the soon start of that seven year period the Bible calls the Tribulation is accelerating and converging, we can only conclude the Tribulation is near. This can only mean the Rapture is close at hand. No one knows the day or the hour of the Rapture but the season of the Rapture is undoubtedly upon us. When it occurs the world will naturally be thrown into utter chaos. This will be in addition to whatever chaos is already occurring due to the ever increasing, accelerating and converging trends that are already in play. Those left behind will be looking for answers. Below are some of the possible answers you can expect and the one I believe will be at the top of the list of answers and will be convincingly offered to a world in chaos. There may certainly be additional possibilities not noted below. My list isn't meant to be exhaustive, only thought provoking.

Some possible explanations (in no particular order)...

1. It wasn't the Rapture, because we're still here -- Many of those left behind will have heard about the Rapture from Christian loved ones and friends. They will immediately conclude it was the Rapture. But, among those left behind will be some pretty prominent "Christian" religious leaders and even pastors. They will opine the disappearances could not possibly be the Rapture because, after all, they are still here.

2. Secret military technology -- Kind of far fetched in my opinion but I can see world leaders suggesting secret military technology by a hostile adversary as the culprit behind the disappearances.

3. Quantum leap in the human evolutionary process -- I wouldn't be surprised if many, if not all of the New Age practitioners and gurus suggest this idiotic idea as the reason for all the disappearances. They may say something along the lines of the 'vibrations' of all those who disappeared were out of harmony with the rest (those left behind) and who will be leaping forward in the evolutionary process. Another twist could be that those who disappeared are the ones who have made a quantum leap in the human evolutionary process and those left behind will need to fall in line if they have any hope of catching up with their evolved loved ones.

4. UFO's, UAE's, aliens, and the alien mother ship -- Although I am listing this explanation last, I believe it will be at the top of the list of explanations for the disappearances. I believe world leaders will not only offer this as the explanation but they will be assisted by the appearance of UFO's and aliens which will be nothing more than demons masquerading as our alien brothers or maybe even our creators. They will 'arrive' via so called UFO's that will, for the first time, be clear and easily observable by those left behind. It will be one of the greatest deceptions pulled off by Satan--the father of lies. In fact, this may very well be the grand delusion God sends upon an unbelieving world or at least a part of it. The Apostle Paul writes, "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11). God will use Satan and eventually the Antichrist as His instruments of judgment.

Let's consider option 4 a little further. Hollywood, for example, has produced numerous movies in recent years about visitors from outer space. I'm convinced some of Hollywood's movie producers are getting their scripts from unseen sources. Could it be that Satan is using a mostly godless Hollywood to prepare the masses? Even more convincing than Hollywood is news reports of government confirmation of UFO's (or what the government refers to now as UAE's -- Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon) that began to trickle out a few years ago and is now reported with regularity. Here are a few news reports that have capture my attention and indicate to me the Tribulation Period is soon to start which can only mean the Rapture is close at hand.

1. I've seen the saucers: Obama weighs in as US interest in UFOs rises. This CBS 60 Minutes report appeared on May 20, 2021. "Obama was asked about the issue of UFOs during an interview on Tuesday, the former president confirming 'footage and records' of unidentified objects exist... What is true, and I'm actually being serious here, is that there's footage and records of objects in the skies, that we don't know exactly what they are, we can't explain how they moved, their trajectory,' Obama told CBS." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/ufo-obama-cbs-60-minutes-america-alienswww.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/ufo-obama-cbs-60-minutes-america-aliens

2. 'Something's coming': is America finally ready to take UFOs seriously? This article appeared on February 5, 2022. "Last year was a breakthrough time for UFOs, as a landmark government report prompted the possibility of extraterrestrial visitors to finally be taken seriously by everyone from senators, to a former president, to the Pentagon... In June, the Pentagon released a highly anticipated report on unexplained aerial phenomena (UAP), the now preferred nomenclature by some in the extraterrestrial community, which found ore than 140 instances of UAPs that could not be explained." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/05/ufos-america-aliens-government-report

3. Hundreds more UFO sightings included in latest report. It's not just 2022 and preceding years. 2023 has seen its fair share of UFO and UAE reports. On January 12, 2023, CBS News reported, "The office tracking reports of UFOs has added nearly 400 additional sightings to its catalog over the last year, either because of new sightings or older sightings discovered in existing files, bringing the total number of UFO sightings to over 500." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hundreds-more-ufo-sightings-included-latest-report/

4. Could aliens be investigating us? It's more likely than you think. "Aliens may be sending us very small 'dandelion see' probes to gather information, according to a news article appearing in the March 28, 2023 edition of The Jerusalem Post. "Pentagon officials wrote in a document released earlier this month that it is entirely possible that aliens are vising our solar system and releasing tiny probes to perform small-scale reconnaissance missions like the ones the National Aeronautics and Spaced Administration (NASA) conducts on other planets." https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-735664

Although UFO's and other worldly visitors have been described by humankind going back millennia, the real uptick in UFO activity seems to have begun in 1947 and has continued to what we have read about, heard about, and witnessed today. I find the 1947 date interesting as it is one year prior to the rebirth of Israel in sovereign fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8. The modern Zionist movement--a religious and political effort that brought thousands of Jews from around the world back to their ancient homeland in the Middle East and reestablished the nation can be traced back at least as far as 1894.

By 1947, I believe it had become obvious to Satan that God was about to fulfill His promises made in an everlasting covenant to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (see Genesis 12, 13, and 15). Since Satan is probably well aware of the coming Tribulation Period and the Rapture of the church that precedes it, it's no wonder that he and his minions would ramp up their spiritually deceptive practices of misleading men and women to believe the foolishness of aliens from outer space arriving via flying saucers or something similar. I believe what we are seeing today is yet another prophetic trend that is accelerating and converging with other prophetic trends all pointing to the to the fact the Tribulation Period is coming upon an unsuspecting world. I am fairly convinced that when the Rapture occurs, Satan and Company will be ready to further deceive the masses with a deluding influence explaining away the sudden disappearance of millions of people worldwide.

I believe the Rapture will occur any moment. It could very well be the catalyst that catapults the world into the final form of the ancient Roman Empire with its 10 kings who ultimately give their authority to the Antichrist. But I also believe it's possible it may not occur until sometime after the world morphs into 10 geopolitical regions and the 10 kings begin to rise to power. The disappearances followed by the arrival of humanity's 'ancient space brothers' arriving to 'set things right,' might be the perfect scenario to bring in the "man of lawlessness" (2 Thessalonians 2:3)--the Antichrist himself--who rises from among the 10 kings and to whom the 10 kings give all of their authority.

Will things work out this way? I'll admit, I am doing a lot of speculating so I'm not dogmatic about it. As I mentioned in a previous article, as the fog continues to lift, things will come into sharper focus. We will see things more clearly. In other words, time will tell. Of course, we may not be around to see it as the Rapture may very well occur right now!


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: endtimes; judgement; lastdays; tribulation
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To: Kandy Atz

——>Like I said...

And like I said, The PTR theory is impossible if the Little Horn/Antichrist power is the Papacy, as literally every Protestant Reformer believed and taught. That’s why most who believe in the PTR refuse to discuss it.

——>Forget all the mumbo jumbo you’ve read about Rome. All the “theories and traditions” of fallen men. Just focus on where YOU are and where YOU will be. Rome will get sorted in due time.

Not good advice. We are constantly warned not to be deceived/devoured. The majority of “Christians” won’t be in heaven. When “Rome does get sorted out in due time”, it will be too late for most. Satan isn’t an idiot. He’s been planning for a long time. He’s after Christians and keeping people away from Christ. Those who don’t believe are already lost. Many will fall because of their trust in the PTR (other traps as well). I’ve got to admit that Satan’s a genius in convincing Christians that the Antichrist power will only hit earth AFTER they’re all gone, even though Daniel 7 says the exact opposite. Maybe think about that.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.


141 posted on 04/29/2023 6:38:14 PM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Cronos
One can only guess why the KJV translators chose the phrase “rightly dividing”

Perhaps the author was directing our attention to something we might otherwise have missed. The scripture is divided and the divisions like other features of scripture are inspired and profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

The first division we see is two testaments. One witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die, so God gave two. The next division is the 4 sections of the Old Testament (law, history, prophets, and experience books). The number 5 in the Bible always divides into a 4+1. The four sections of the Old Testament needed one more and the New Testament finished it. Each of the 5 sections divides the same way as the Bible as a whole.

I could go on but I want to point out something to you. There is nothing in scripture that says the meaning of the number 7, but everyone comes up with the same meaning without controversy. The numerical structure of scripture is a seal of inspiration of Gods word. It is doubtful that any of the men who wrote God’s word even knew it was there. It was discovered after the PTR was discovered.

A good study is to compare the structure of the Pentateuch with the Psalms also called the “Pentateuch of David.”
142 posted on 05/01/2023 9:40:45 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Cronos
The sickle and harvest is not a "rapture" but His Second Coming - where the righteous are separated from the wicked as wheat from weeds (Mt 13:30).

I would point out that in Matthew 13;30 the tares were gathered first but In harvest of Revelation14 The god guys were taken and the evil were left behind for the judgment. Could be different events.
143 posted on 05/01/2023 9:44:37 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Philsworld
Since you once again dodged my very simple questions. How about this?

IF the papacy is the "Little Horn/Antichrist" as you repeat continually, do you think that THE ANTICHRIST is on Earth NOW? Please answer YES or NO!

If you answered NO to the Little Horn question, what does that matter to a Believer, part of the Body of Christ? I have NOTHING to do with religion. How does that change what was promised the Body of Christ? I can see how Catholics might be in trouble, if they have more faith in their denomination than God's Word. But that is true for everyone who has NOT made Jesus their Lord, regardless of religious background. If you answered yes, you are mistaken. We are NOT in THE TRIBULATION.

How can faith in God's Word EVER be deception? Especially when the Holy Spirit confirms it in your heart?

There is tribulation in the world because of the Word. Satan attempts to immediately steal it, and if unsuccessful make it confusing, especially when it comes to End Times. Matthew 13, Mark 4. But that is NOT THE TRIBULATION. Something must be taken out of the way BEFORE the antichrist has free reign on Earth. What could possibly be so powerful that it restrained satan's efforts on Earth? The obvious answer is the Body of Christ, who acts with authority to limit satan's work. With the Body gone, God must appoint 144,000 Jewish evangelists for those who remain - Israel and the Nations. Why? Christians are gone!

What the Little Horn or papacy does is largely irrelevant. God has spoken. His Word will be done. Satan will think he is in charge, but that is not THE TRUTH. But those 7 years will be a time of testing, and refinement. Israel will become the nation of kings and priests and be a light to the nations as promised. It is a time of Jacob's Trouble. The Body of Christ will not be present on Earth. For what possible purpose would we play, when Israel is the CLEAR focus. We are no longer under condemnation. Believers HAVE been judged. We are IN CHRIST. Appearing with Him in Glory!

And if somehow, Believers miss it, and the rapture occurs mid or late trib, we will still appear with Jesus. As Colossians clearly says.

IF THEN you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [Ps. 110:1.]
2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.
3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.
Colossians 3:1-4 AMP

That is GOOD NEWS - not a warning. Unless you have NOT been raised with Jesus.

EVEN if those who believed God was coming for His Body - as promised, yet got the date or timing wrong, that does not change who I am IN CHRIST. The Holy Spirit will lead you to TRUTH, not deception. So the time comes, tribulation starts, and the HS reveals: hey guys, its not at the beginning, but mid-trib. Nothing changes for the BELIEVER except the departure date. Jesus is still My Lord. I am still made alive, sitting in Heavenly Places IN Christ Jesus, and COMPLETE IN CHRIST!

Satan IS NOT A GENIUS. READ THE WORD. He is spiritually DEAD. He is a FALLEN ANGEL and the Father of LIES. He is UNDER OUR FEET, a snake in the grass trying to survive until his final judgment. He is LIKE a roaring lion, a Believer can rebuke him as easily as Jesus did when He walked on the Earth. We worship a VERY BIG GOD, and He is opposed by a tiny, rebellious, prideful devil. once Jesus whipped him so bad he left for a season! He couldn't touch Jesus, there was no sin in Him and He only spoke the Words of His Father. (Luke 4, 10:17-20, John 8:42-47, 12:49, 14:30) Believers can resist him and he WILL flee! (Ephesians 4:21-30, 6:10-12, 2 Timothy 4:17-18, Hebrews 2:14-18, James 4:5-10)

4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.
6 Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.
7 But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God—[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
8 None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 2:4-8 AMP

You need to truly appreciate what you have in Christ, and GREATLY diminish ANY fear of satan and his minions. Write the name of JESUS boldly, and satans in lowercase - that's from the Lord!

7 Casting the whole of your care [all your anxieties, all your worries, all your concerns, once and for all] on Him, for He cares for you affectionately and cares about you watchfully. [Ps. 55:22.]
8 Be well balanced (temperate, sober of mind), be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [in fierce hunger], seeking someone to seize upon and devour.
9 Withstand him; be firm in faith [against his onset—rooted, established, strong, immovable, and determined], knowing that the same (identical) sufferings are appointed to your brotherhood (the whole body of Christians) throughout the world.
1 Peter 5:7–9 AMP

I looked at Daniel 7 again to try and see something, anything relevant to the Body of Christ, but there is NOTHING There. The Revelation of the Body was HIDDEN IN GOD, and not revealed until given to Paul to preach. Daniel 7 is talking about not saints in the NT sense, but the Holy Ones of Israel. This matches quite nicely with most End Times prophecies found in the OT, with Israel in the Tribulation. But you really have to contort yourself, and twist Scripture into a monster pretzel to make the BOC fit into the Tribulation. It just does not belong - believe me I tried. I almost failed a NT course because I could not in my spirit agree with what was being taught. Several of my classmates had the same challenge. We were all Believers, and with each question we asked, the more confusing the answer. But honestly its not that hard if you simply BELIEVE God's Word, and let the Holy Spirit confirm it. Then, as you read the prophecies, and read Revelation it makes perfect sense, because its NOT ABOUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. The, Revelation of Jesus Christ, is for folks who DO NOT KNOW JESUS. It was written to SERVANTS, not children of God, the Body of Christ, or those sitting in Heavenly Places in Christ. It really is SO EASY it takes a theologian to misunderstand. But to someone with ears to hear, the Word is SIMPLE. Psalm 119:130.
144 posted on 05/04/2023 10:20:42 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz

——>IF the papacy is the “Little Horn/Antichrist” as you repeat continually, do you think that THE ANTICHRIST is on Earth NOW? Please answer YES or NO!

Yes (as I’ve always very clearly stated).

——>What the Little Horn or papacy does is largely irrelevant.

Not to those who lose their salvation because they are deceived by it. And, Satan acting directly through the Little Horn/Antichrist isn’t irrelevant.

——>I looked at Daniel 7 again to try and see something, anything relevant to the Body of Christ, but there is NOTHING There.

Maybe you don’t SEE something because of your false belief in dispensationalism and the PTR?

Can you explain why the Protestant Reformers saw it CLEARLY from the BIBLE, and you don’t?

——>Believers HAVE been judged.

Judgment occurs at our death, or if we are alive when Christ returns, it occurs at the close of probation, after the MOTB decision is final, which happens before the plagues. Once saved, always saved (OSAS) and once judged, always judged (OJAJ) are some of Satan’s other lies. Judgment is based on DOING the will of God, AFTER you proclaim grace (faith unto salvation). FAITH and OBEDIENCE are critical to salvation. Has absolutely nothing to do with earning your salvation.

Matthew 7:21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!

Those who commit unrepentant LAWLESSNESS, no matter who they are (God is no respecter of persons), will not be in heaven.

Having faith and not backing it up with works renders your faith mute.

Early Church Fathers
on the Timing of the Rise of Antichrist
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/fathers-on-antichrist.htm

Who is the Antichrist?
https://www.who-is-the-antichrist.org/


145 posted on 05/05/2023 5:08:35 AM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Kandy Atz

According to Daniel 7, does the Little Horn/Antichrist come out of Pagan Rome, and last until the second coming of Christ?


146 posted on 05/05/2023 5:12:34 AM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Kandy Atz

Who is the Little Horn?
https://youtu.be/D2ZugKdNrps


147 posted on 05/05/2023 6:46:24 AM PDT by Philsworld (Saints are saints and angels are angels, except when they're called saints. )
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To: Philsworld

Thank you for clearly answering the question. I will peruse your posts later and respond as necessary.


148 posted on 05/05/2023 8:40:47 AM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz
Apologies for the delayed response.

  1. There cannot be verses in God's Word that are repugnant to another. There needs to be a reason why the plan of Salvation might be different. And if they are, then the explanation is obvious. When Jesus walked the Earth, He was teaching primarily Jews about the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul's Revelation of the Body of Christ was "Hidden in God" - not revealed yet to man. That should explain many differences between Paul's letters and Gospel/Acts/early Paul letters.
    Breaking it down
    1. "Verses repugnant to another" -- there aren't. All of God's salvation - for all of humanity - is one. There is no separate paths of salvation
    2. "Why the plan of salvation is different" --> yet it is not. The plan of salvation is clear in the Bible -->
      • it starts with a man, Abraham
      • grows to a family - Isaac then Jacob
      • grows to a tribe, a clan, a nation - Israel
      • Then grows to the entire world --> just as Daniel envisioned -- the rock that is Christianity grows to become the mountain that covers the entire world

    3. When Jesus walked the Earth, He was teaching primarily Jews about the Kingdom of Heaven --> He was not -- Jesus preached to the Samaritans (the Samaritan / Syro-Phonenician woman at the well) and to gentiles --> A clear instance in Matthew of Jesus’ outreach beyond the Jews is His interaction with the Roman centurion:
      Matthew 8:5-13 (RSV) As he entered Caper’na-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him [6] and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress.” [7] And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” [8] But the centurion answered him, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. [9] For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, `Go,’ and he goes, and to another, `Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, `Do this,’ and he does it.” [10] When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. [11] I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, [12] while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.” [13] And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; be it done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
      Note how Jesus not only readily healed the Roman centurion’s servant (8:7, 13), but also “marveled” at his faith and commended it as superior to the faith of anyone “in Israel” (8:10). And that led Him to observe that many Gentiles will be saved, whereas many Jews will not be saved (8:11-12). If this is supposedly a “Jewish only” view (“Gentiles need not apply”), it was surely the weirdest, most confusing way imaginable to express it.

      A second counter-example is from the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus told His followers, “You are the light of the world” (Matthew 5:14). --> They are a light to the gentiles, not a separate group

      and finally you have

      A second counter-example is from the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus told His followers, “You are the light of the world” (Matthew 5:14).
      and
      Luke 2:30-32 for mine eyes have seen thy salvation [31] which thou hast prepared in the presence of all peoples, [32] a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to thy people Israel.”


    4. Then you completely misquote Paul in Paul's Revelation of the Body of Christ was "Hidden in God" - not revealed yet to man. -- do read Colossians 3 again
      3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
      -- Not a revelation hidden in God

      Neither in Ephesians 3

      to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things
      -- this is, if anything clearer --> the SAME mystery for the Jews and the gentiles is "made plain to everyone"

    5. That should explain many differences between Paul's letters and Gospel/Acts/early Paul letters. -- there aren't differences between Paul's epistles and the gospels

149 posted on 05/08/2023 2:10:07 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Let me elaborate more on your very, very wrong statement That should explain many differences between Paul's letters and Gospel/Acts/early Paul letters. -- there aren't differences between Paul's epistles and the gospels -- that was a false narrative spread by Muslims to claim "Paulianity" - NO, the message in the Gospels and in the Pauline epistles is the same -- to elaborate

  1. The synoptic gospels - yes, Mark too - clearly have Jesus as God, calling Himself God, being persecuted for it, being worshipped as God. And Paul does the same - in Acts 9:20 at once [Paul] began to preach in their synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God”

  2. Paul CLEARLY states that He is telling the same Gospel to his listeners as anyone else
    “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
    Paul says he “delivered” to the Corinthians what he had received. This is a technical term the rabbis used, meaning that what they had received they faithfully passed on to others (it is a term that was also used in reference to passwords – the importance of passing them on faithfully is obvious). So, Paul is saying that what he had received, he faithfully passed on – in other words, what he preaches isn’t his own message, it’s what he had received from others. Second, this message that Paul preached, is in agreement with Jesus.

    ============

Paul was NOT the first person to preach to the gentiles - Philip and Peter did that

Paul was NOT the first person to baptise gentiles -- Peter did that

Paul was also not the only Apostle who went to Gentiles -- Thomas preached among the gentiles in India while Bartholomew and Thaddeus went to preach to the Iranians and Mesopotamians respectively.

150 posted on 05/08/2023 2:15:54 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Next, let's look at your responses from "Look carefully"

Look carefully at the Scriptures you posted. Who are they for? When were they written, and to whom?

Let's look at them

ScriptureWho was it written for?When were they written?And to whom?
Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. To who written: When written: To whom:
Romans 2:13-16: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified… on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. To who written: To the Church in RomeWhen written: 55 ADTo whom: to followers of "The Way" both of Jewish and of Gentile background
Matt. 10:22: And you will be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. To who written: to followers of "The Way" who were of a Jewish background - both born Jews and converts to Judaism, More specifically this was to Greek speaking Jewish (both by birth and converts) Christians.When written: around 55 AD before the destruction of the templeTo whom: to followers of "The Way" who were of a Jewish background - both born Jews and converts to Judaism
Romans 13:11: For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed To who written: To the Church in RomeWhen written: 55 ADTo whom: to followers of "The Way" both of Jewish and of Gentile background
I Cor. 5:5: You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. To who written: to the Church in the CorinthiansWhen written: around 53 to 55 AD To whom: to a mix of believers from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds
The early Church was pretty clear that the Jewish and gentile believers were to be ONE, in ONE expanded Israel - the Church
151 posted on 05/08/2023 9:10:25 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Next, let's look at your response How do they compare to Paul's later letters written TO, FOR, and ABOUT the Body of Christ, which was revealed after these verses?

That "abrogation" is not Christian but Islamic - unlike the Quran, the 73 books of the Bible do not negate earlier texts with newer texts. Jesus fulfilled the law

152 posted on 05/08/2023 9:12:11 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
As a starting point, can we at least agree that the OT is written FOR us, but its not TO us or ABOUT us. It was written for Israel. Forcing the Church into OT is like forcing it into the Tribulation - it just doesn't belong.

No, that is not what Christians have believed - no Christian since Apostolic times has taught such nonsense -- the Old Testament was not written only for Israel - that's why the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 was reading it

The OT is about the community of Christ believers -- the ekklesia

What is the Ekklesia, the Church? Those who are "called out" - n the Septuagint, the Greek word "ἐκκλησία" is used to translate the Hebrew "קהל" (qahal).

The qahal (Hebrew: קהל) was a theocratic organizational structure in ancient Israelite society according to the Hebrew Bible,

Where the Masoretic Text uses the term qahal, the Septuagint usually uses the Koine Greek term ekklesia, ἐκκλησία, which means "assembly," "gathering," or "congregation"

The English language word "church" is from the Old English word cirice, derived from West Germanic *kirika, which in turn comes from the Greek κυριακή kuriakē, meaning "of the Lord" (possessive form of κύριος kurios "ruler" or "lord"). Kuriakē in the sense of "church" is most likely a shortening of κυριακὴ οἰκία kuriakē oikia ("house of the Lord") or ἐκκλησία κυριακή ekklēsia kuriakē ("congregation of the Lord").

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The Church i.e. the ekklesia is everywhere in the Old Testament -- The word ecclesia means assembly of called out people. In a religious sense, the word could also be translated congregation. These words would accurately represent the people of God when gathered together.

the “body of believers”, the “assembly of the saints”, the “assembly of the congregation of the saints” has existed since Moses

1 Chronicles 28:8 “So now I charge you in the sight of all Israel and of the assembly the church of the Lord, and in the hearing of our God: Be careful to follow all the commands of the Lord your God, that you may possess this good land and pass it on as an inheritance to your descendants forever.

Psalm 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation church of the saints.

Numbers 14:5 Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation church of the children of Israel

153 posted on 05/08/2023 9:22:22 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
And to add to the above -- that is what Christians have known and believed since apostolic times that the Old Testament books are about the salvation of ALL mankind through Abraham expanding to Israel, expanding to the wider Israel (the church)

That is what Christians - whether of Jewish or of Gentile background - have believed since Apostolic times

154 posted on 05/08/2023 9:23:56 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Then, Galatians 3 is not a "transition from the Gospel of the Kingdom to the Gospel of Grace" -- that's 19th century fiction

Galatians 3:25 to 29 should be making it clear to you There is neither Jew nor Greek -- i.e. there is no separate Church of the gentiles and church of the jews - there is ONE Church, the expanded Israel, the Kingdom of God

Where now, we must ask, is this spiritual kingdom of God? Where does God rule by the Word and Spirit of Jesus Christ? Where are righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost? Where is truth? Where are the people who bow willingly to God in Christ by believing the gospel with love in their hearts? Where on earth is there at least the small beginning of God’s being all in all?

Where in the past 2000 years or so of New Testament history, since Jesus was exalted as king at God’s right hand in the ascension, have there always been these realities? Where alone have these things been found?

The answer to these questions will be the identification of the kingdom of God.

The answer is: the church. The ekklesia is the kingdom of God.

The beatitudes in Matthew 5 and indeed the entire “Sermon on the Mount” in Matthew 5-7 identify the community of Christ believers, the ekklesia , the Church as the kingdom. This sermon by the king of the kingdom Himself describes the law and life of the kingdom of heaven. And this law and life are the law and life of the church.

all the parables of Jesus prove that the ekklesia is the kingdom. The parables teach various aspects of the kingdom of heaven: “The kingdom is like unto ....” And the realm thus described, the realm where these aspects of the kingdom are reality, is the ekklesia . To take one example, where is it that the king forgives his servants ten thousand talents so that the servants are called to forgive each other, as is taught in the parable in Matthew 18:21-35? Christ Himself gives the answer in Matthew 18:20: “Where two or three are gathered together in my name” and where Christ is “in the midst of them.” This realm—the kingdom of heaven— It is the church. It was the ccommunity, the ekklesia in Jesus’ day, no matter how numerically small, physically powerless, and culturally insignificant by the standards of man. It is the church today. And it will be the church until the day that Christ returns.

155 posted on 05/08/2023 10:07:05 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Ephesians 1:9-10 he has made known to us the mystery[e] of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him 10 as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth. -- not as a separate "church salvation" but the same salvation He won for all humanity
156 posted on 05/08/2023 10:08:54 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Kandy Atz
Ephesians 1:9-10 he has made known to us the mystery[e] of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him 10 as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth. -- not as a separate "church salvation" but the same salvation He won for all humanity

we learn from the New Testament that the wall of partition or hostility which formerly divided Jews and Gentiles has been permanently taken away by Christ (Eph. 2:14-15)

The New testament is adamant about the removal of the wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles

The teaching that God has a separate purpose for Israel and the church is fundamentally wrong - Galatians 6:15-16, "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God"

Who are meant by "all who follow this rule"? Obviously, all those who are new creatures in Christ, for whom neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. This would have to include all true believers, both Jews and Gentiles.

Consider, for example, what Paul said to the Jews gathered in the synagogue at Antioch of Pisidia: "And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus.... And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, 'I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.' ... Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses" (Acts 13:32-34, 38-39). Note that, according to these words, God's promises to the fathers have been fulfilled in the resurrection of Jesus, and that in that resurrection God has given to his New Testament people "the sure blessings of David." These promises and blessings, further, are interpreted as meaning, not a future Jewish kingdom in the millennium, but forgiveness of sins and salvation. The promises made to Israel, therefore, are fulfilled in the New Testament church.

============

Also seen in I Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people (mg., a people for his possession), that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." Peter addresses his epistle "to the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (1:1). Though the word dispersion is often applied to Jews, it is evident from the contents of this epistle that Peter was writing to Christians in these provinces, many of whom, if not most of whom, were Gentiles.

I.e. Peter is addressing the Church - no longer Jew or Gentile

When we now look carefully at I Peter 2:9, we notice that Peter is here applying to the New Testament church expressions which are used in the Old Testament to describe Israel. The words "a chosen race" are applied in Isaiah 43:20 to the people of Israel. The expressions "a royal priesthood, a holy nation" are used to describe the people of Israel in Exodus 19:6. The words "God's own people" or "a people for his possession" are applied to the people of Israel in Exodus 19:5

Peter is therefore saying here in the plainest of words that what the Old Testament said about Israel can now be said about the church. No longer are the people of Israel to be thought of exclusively as constituting the chosen race—the Jewish-Gentile church is now God's chosen race. No longer are the Old Testament Jews God's holy nation—the entire church must now be so called

No longer is Israel by itself "a people for God's possession"—these words must now be applied to the entire New Testament church. Is it not abundantly clear from the passages just dealt with that the New Testament church is now the true Israel, in whom and through whom the promises made to Old Testament Israel are being fulfilled?

In Ephesians 2:11-22 Paul shows that God has made Gentiles and Jews fellow-members of the household of God, having removed the wall of hostility (or partition) which was between them

157 posted on 05/08/2023 10:23:27 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Philsworld; Seven_0
Phils of the lesser darkness -- Jesus is not the archangel Michael

As Daniel notes, there are many "princes" of angels i.e. archangels - and Michael is the archangel over Israel and later greater Israel i.e. the Church

Michael is not Jesus - Jesus is God, no matter what you Seventh Day Adventists say to the contrary

158 posted on 05/08/2023 10:26:13 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Seven_0
There is nothing in scripture that says the meaning of the number 7, but everyone comes up with the same meaning without controversy. The numerical structure of scripture is a seal of inspiration of Gods word. It is doubtful that any of the men who wrote God’s word even knew it was there. It was discovered after the PTR was discovered.

No, it was not "discovered" in the 19th century --> the early Christians wrote of the significance of the number 7 as the number for completeness

159 posted on 05/08/2023 10:28:11 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos
No, it was not "discovered" in the 19th century --> the early Christians wrote of the significance of the number 7 as the number for completeness

The number seven is the most conspicuous of all the numbers and the meaning is easily discerned. The meaning of all the other numbers can be found on much less traveled path. I am not aware of any study of the numerical structure of scripture before the late nineteenth century.
160 posted on 05/08/2023 11:20:21 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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