| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Mary was not deity thus she suffered from original sin like everyone else.
And not the Jewish one either, despite the claim that it is Hebrew scripture.
Well, is hardly compares with being blinded by birds dropping dung into in your eyes while sleeping, then being attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to eat you, then burning its liver and heart to drive away a demon Asmodeus (to Upper Egypt) that keeps a women from consummating marriages, thus enabling you (the groom) to finally do so. A lesson in persistence that Mormons (who have their own fantasies) should like.
Well, you see that Catholics argue that they do not use the word that is only used for worship, therefore even though they can engage in adulation and behavior that can describe worship in the Bible, and more than one word is used for worship, then Catholics deny that they worship Mary. All the while claiming that we worship the Bible (and which they claim Rome gave us and therefore fallaciously reason that we should follow her, and essentially make a god out of her, while it is Scripture that speaks as wholly inspired of God, not popes and councils, and Scripture is what directs us to worship God, and not to think of mortals above that which is written - 1 Cor. 4:6 - which Catholics can really "jump the shark" in doing).
One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.
Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?
1 Corinthians 3:21 states, “Therefore let no man glory in men. “ and 1 Corinthians 4:6 states that ye might learn in us not to think *of men* above that which is written.” Although this is in the context of sectarianism due to Corinthians elevating particular leaders above that which is written in Scripture, the principle applies to elevating Mary above that which is written.
It should be stated that my objection is not to Mary being honored as the holy chosen vessel to bring forth Christ, but to the excess ascriptions, appelations, exaltation, and adoration (and the manner of exegesis behind it), ascribed to the Catholic Mary, whether officially or by Catholics (with implicit sanction of authority). And which presumes that bowing down to a statute and attributing to the person it represent attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them, and imploring such for heavenly aid, would be understood and vindicated as merely being "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (which Rome states is the manner of adoration reserved for God).
As making that distinction itself is presumptuous, the Scriptures do not sanction religiously bowing down to any statue in supplication, nor supplies even one single prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (crying "Abba, Father," Gal. 4:6; not "Mama, Mother"), nor in instructions on who to pray to ("our Father who art in Heaven," not "our Mother").
Note that many Catholic Marian attributions much parallel even that of Christ. For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,
As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;
As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;
As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
As the Holy Spirit directs believers to be "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) in whom believes are accounted a holy nation, (1 Pt. 2:9) so Catholicism teaches that believers are to "turn their eyes to Mary" in whom "the Church is already the 'all-holy." (CCC 829)
As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);
As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."
As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
As no one can obtain mercy, be saved/redeemed or be delivered and know the Father but through the Son, so the same is said of Mary;
As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.
As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;
As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."
As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."
As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.
As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.
And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;
as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;
as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;
as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.
As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!
Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.
In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)
The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Yet, as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God
Which suffers from both strawmen of what it basically means as well as unreasonable understandings of it.
"And it avoids the question of differing interpretations of scripture by various denominations."
Which ignorance is part of one of the strawmen of it. Rather than SS meaning only the Bible is to be used as clearly formally providing everything needful for the Christian, the classic document on SS, the Westminster Confession explains it means sufficient so that a person can know and grow in Christ, but with sufficiency not restricted to what is explicitly and formally provided, but that in a due use of the ordinary means one may attain unto a sufficient understanding of those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, and that "by good and necessary consequence what is not expressly set down in Scripture may be (not necessarily will be by all) deduced from Scripture." Yet Scripture also provides that "there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature..." and that Scripture also provides for "synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God," (https://westminsterstandards.org/westminster-confession-of-faith) but with veracity based upon manifest conformity with Scripture, versus the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).
" In Protestantism, every man is his own Pope, hence the multiplicity of denominations."
Not so, as beside liberal Protestantism, and aside from cults and those who act as members of such, rather than presuming a charism of ensured conditional infallibility, the veracity of an evangelical argument must rest upon the degree of Scriptural substantiation, which is how the NT church began, following itinerant preachers (and Preacher) who so, in dissent from the historical magisterium and stewards of Scripture.
Meanwhile even under the premise of ensured magisterial veracity (which beyond so-called infallible teachings, extends to presumed preservation of error in salvific matters in all that the ordinary magisterium teaches and requires submission to, and which is the basis for assurance of doctrine for a faithful RC) you cannot escape the problem of interpretation.
Thus as well-evidenced even daily on FR here, you have Catholics who essentially operate as evangelicals in determining the validity of modern RC teaching based upon their judgment of what past church teaching is and means, rather than submitting to the judgment of their "living magisterium" which interprets past teaching - which paradoxically is what so much past papal teaching overall requires - regardless of how contradictory that may seem to either Scripture or past RC teaching, including her heretical Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Roman Catholic church there is no salvation) teaching.
With the result being such threads as
Is Catholicism about to break into three?
And, Pope Says he Prays U.S.-Led Schism Can Be Thwarted
Archbishop Viganò: We Are Witnessing Creation of a ‘New Church ’
The SSPX's Relationship with Francis: Is it Traditional?
Is the Catholic Church in De Facto Schism?
Finally in anticipation of typical RC objections, here are 14 questions as regards sola scriptura versus sola ecclesia
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude v24 "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
How is recognizing that people are sinners like all men are, equivalent to Calvin's doctrine of the total depravity of men.
You sound like Calvin is living rent free in your head if that is the first connection you make to a general statement.
Do you deny Scripture?
Romans 3:21-25 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
Projection is strong. Catholics assume that's what you meant because that's what they really do believe.
It's along the lines of Throw a rock over a fence and the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.
The problem is not that purgatory is simply missing from the Bible, but that RC purgatory (which version even the EO's tend to reject) is contrary to the Bible. Which rather than teaching that having to be rendered fit for heaven after conversion by suffering for sin in this life or via the norm of postmortem purgatorial , suffering commencing at death, nor character purification (which you left out), Scripture teaches that every believer is completely forgiven and accepted in the Below and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, and wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first). As shown already. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)
And which acceptance in Christ and entrance into glory to be with Lord is not due to actually becoming good enough via the act of baptism, and thus working to attain to that condition in this or hereafter, but which is on account of penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) being is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and which is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27,28) and in seeking to become in heart and practice what they are positionally in Christ. (Philippians 3:7-12)
But which growth in grace is an effect and evidence of saving faith as believers who will go to be with Lord after this life, and not the cause of it. And as already said, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ And which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure!) due to the manner of material one built the church with. But which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:43-45)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:7-9)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. (Romans 4:4-8)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Colossians 2:13)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Ephesians 1:6)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Ephesians 2:6)
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8)
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. (Philippians 1:22-24)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:28-29)
" undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain. "
You are stating your own interpretation of Purgatory as being simply caused by lack of the vision of God versus what many other RCs have stated, while as said, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (whatever comes first). Meanwhile the whole premise that suffering itself purifies and perfects a person is false, since real purification of character in perfection requires testing, being able to choose btwn attractive alternatives, and which this worldis the only place described as providing. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6) And which is for perfection of faith, which God works to do, not to escape Purgatory. The Lord Jesus Himself, in being "made perfect" (Hebrews 2:10) as regards experientially, was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15) was subjected to this in the life.
Give it up. The redeemed are those who come to God as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation - not as soul saved by their works or church affiliation, but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may find salvation - and with a humble and penitent heart (that wants a new life following Christ) believe on the crucified and risen Lord Jesus who alone can save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood and righteousness. And who thus are baptized and follow Him (and repent when they find that they failed to do so). Thanks be to God!.
"which I reminded you - 5 copies, more than any other book had been found being used by the Essenes."
And as said, since Scripture mss were fond along with non-Scripture, but your perverse logic all was Scripture!
"25% of what was found in the caves did not have a liturgical import. For you to use this false comparison to discredit Tobit, is a straw man deflection."
Liturgical import? THAT is what is is a straw man deflection for the principle you attempted to work off of what that since "5 copies of Tobit were found in the Qumran deposit of Sacred Writings used by the Essenes" then that validated Tobit as being Scripture, and thus by arguing that "liturgical import" makes this case then at best you can only argue that Tobit likely had "liturgical import" and not that this proves Tobit was Scripture! Why is this so hard to understand?
Did you know that Luther included apocryphal books in his translation, in a separate section as not being Scripture proper (a judgment many other Catholics had) yet while Luther expressed sentiments toward the book of Tobit as being a book “useful and good for us Christians to read...and whose writings and concerns are extraordinarily Christian.” Why I have Tobit in my Bible program. Thus according to your logic both Luther and myself must consider Tobit to be Scripture!
"and keep in mind -it is at THIS point WHAT WAS DECIDED UPON AS SACRED SCRIPTURE by Church magisterium, for what we like to call the CHRISTIAN Holy Bible… You have to have a plausible answer then, why the Holy Spirit would allow this Church error of canonicty to exist for over 1000 years. I am curious how you spin that."
"Plausible answer?!" Once again you are engaging in the logical fallacy of begging the question. What Rome decides simply does not translate into what the Holy Spirit declares as Truth, as if what the RC church decides settles a matter. Distinctive Catholic teachings themselves are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).
The novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome is itself self-proclaimed. For Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
And as for the premise that the Holy Spirit allowed this Church error of canonicty to exist for over 1000 years, if that was true then you need to ask why the same Catholic church did not definitively settle the matter of the canon until about 1500 years after the last book was penned. For as shown here multiple times (and in tomes) before, the FACT is that scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon after the death of Luther. Read it.
Thus Luther was no maverick but had substantial RC support for his non-binding personal view on the canon. Thus his views were not made an issue in his excommunication. Meanwhile you can argue with some of your cousins who effectively view Rome removed books, since the canon of the EOs (if not formally defined) and Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church are slightly larger. How much is irrelevant.
Once again your arguments are an embarrassing argument against being a RC.
If I were going to consider any of the ancient Jewish writings as potentially canonical it would be the book of Enoch. Solely because Jude quotes it as authoritative in his epistle. I’m not willing to go there but it has always puzzled me.
Well, see here on the Book of Enoch. Enoch also states in section 7:1-4 (in a section of the Book of Enoch dated to about 250 B.C.) that the "giants" mentioned in Genesis 6:4 were 300 cubits (or about 450 feet, though I think I read somewhere that an Egyptian manuscripts makes it more like 40 feet). And simply being quoted, referenced or alluded to does not itself establish something as Scripture. The Book of Jasher is mentioned in Joshua 10:12-13. And as "Got questions" also informs us,
There are other Hebrew works that are mentioned in the Bible that God directed the authors to use. Some of these include the Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14), the Book of Samuel the Seer, the Book of Nathan the Prophet, and the Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29). Also, there are the Acts of Rehoboam and the Chronicles of the Kings of Judah (1 Kings 14:29). Paul included a quotation from the Cretan poet Epimenides (Titus 1:12) and quoted from the poets Epimenides and Aratus in his speech at Athens (Acts 17:28).
Also, besides many contrived claims of references to apocryphal books there are some that can be called references, but none are referred to as "Scripture,' or even "it is written," "God/Moses said" which only refer to books of the Hebrew canon. And Enoch it is not called Scripture, unlike "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself," (Luke 24:27) "which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (Luke 24:44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44,45) Which weighs in favor of a Palestinian canon thought to be held by those who sat in the seat of Moses, who never contended with the Lord about what He referred to as "Scripture," "it is written," "God/Moses said."
As I typed above...
15 'promises' from whom???
1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me
2. I promise
5. The soul which recommends itself to me
9. I shall
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me
12. All those who propagate the Holy Rosary shall be aided by me
13.I have obtained
15. Devotion of my Rosary
Versus...
Isaiah 53
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Doesn’t mean they were ever saved to begin with.
if someone shared the gospel with them and they refused it, they would qualify.
Biden and pelosi were baptized into Catholicism as infants, exercising no conscious decision of commitment to Christ by an act of their own volition. It was imposed on them without their consent or choice, and with no ability to exercise their own saving faith.
Salvation therefore could not be confirmed to them by anyone because that bishop did not know their hearts.
Since ceremonies and rituals do not save anyone, one cannot presume they lost their salvation because there is no evidence they were ever saved to begin with.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.