Eating the body of Jesus doesn't compute

February 13 2021 | Self

[HypatiaTaught]

Good morning my conservative FRiends.

I am reaching out to hopefully get an answer to my lifelong question of a central belief in the Christian faith, especially the Roman Catholic faith.

Background: I grew up in a very Roman Catholic family. I am number 10 of 13 children, 8 boys, 5 girls. Mom also had 2 miscarriages which in truth, she became pregnant with 10 boys rather than the 8. Mom had 15 pregnancies in 17 years.

We went to Mass every Sunday and all the holy days. Mom actually taught Catechism to the community and was a very loving soul.

My question since the age of eight and remains 50 years later, why do we have the belief of actually having to eat the body of Jesus Christ?

I am a very logical person, but this concept of consuming the flesh of God's son to obtain salvation simply doesn't make sense. I get that he died for our sins and was sacrificed. I know the history of sacrifices 2000 years ago. Tribes sacrificed lambs, goats and other livestock. But why the eating of his body or any human body? We don't eat humans. I don't even eat animals any more, for digestive purposes. Maybe I am the only one who finds this tenant extremely disturbing.

[Jim from C-Town]

‘I am a very logical person’

Faith is belief outside of logic & reason.

[impactplayer]

For me it goes back to the peace offerings as prescribed in Liviticus. In the peace offering the family took part in eating the sacrifice, thus establishing there peace with God. This is the same thing.
As for drinking his blood, this goes back to the pagan practive of drinking the blood of animals in the belief that they would take on the atributes of that animal: speed, cunning, fierce fighter, etc. The Bible strickly forbids this - we are not to take on anything from the animals. However, taking on the atributes of Jesus is exactly what we now need to do - thus “drinking his blood” of the new covenant.

[alexander_busek]

Maybe I am the only one who finds this tenant tenet extremely disturbing.

If you find a tenant disturbing, you should evict him.

If you find a tenet disturbing, you should speak with your priest.

Regards,

[Pikachu_Dad]

Think, ok.

So why did you lead off the question with the vicious attack on your mother?

[Scott from the Left Coast]

John 6:35. “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.”

It’s a ceremony. As the laying hands on the head of a bull to be slaughtered was a ceremony to represent the salvation of the Jews prior to Christ. It is to make you think and remember the Lord. You stop all other thoughts, all other actions and focus on the one to whom you owe your very existence. He is your sustenance.

[mewzilla]

Wyclif -- Christ's Real Body not in the Eucharist

[Leaning Right]

John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

But...Jesus very often spoke using parables and allegories. He often did not mean literally what he said. Instead, there was a deeper and richer lesson behind His words.

Is John 6:53 one of those cases? I think so. But then again, I do not have a divinity degree.

[moovova]

“Eating the body of Jesus doesn’t compute”

Neither does the Easter Bunny.

[Responsibility2nd]

Christians believe in the symbolism of eating unleavened bread which represents the body of Christ.

Catholics believe in a Catholic doctrine called transubstantiation which means the host actually becomes the literal flesh of Jesus Christ.

[China Clipper]

In the old times, bread was considered a staple. Everyone who had bread could "survive", but only if they had bread. Jesus says he is the "bread of life". "I am the bread of life," says he, "He who eats my bread will live forever".

It's very symbolic. It isn't as if Christians advocate cannibalism. By sharing in the teachings and words of Christ, (the "bread"), and believing in how He has shown us to live, we are saved!

[VicVanleeuwenhoek]

What does every human have in common, indeed pretty much all living things ?
We eat life to live, weather its plants, animals, fungus, you name it, we all eat life.

It doesn’t matter how good or evil you are, you eat life.

This life is from God, what we call his Spirit.
The Spirit of Life in all living things.

Jesus tells us “I am the way the truth and the life.”

As you eat Life to live he’s telling us to eat this Special Gift of Life to live in Him and to never die.

It’s a gift to bring us closer to Him.

[G Larry]

That's what these people thought, but Christ reproved them:

60 Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?

62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


[Vs 63 is a contrast between the Spirit's ability to enlighten our minds (14:26) and human reason's inability to comprehend revealed truths apart from faith (8:15).
It is this earthbound perspective that is profitless in the face of divine mysteries. 
Note that Jesus is not speaking of his own "flesh", which does in fact give life to the world as stated in vs. 51. (see also Eph 2:13-16 and Heb 10:10)]


64 But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him.

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

[xp38]

tenant.....you mean tenet

[Cronos]

Well, the think is if you read in the Bible, starting from John 6:30, we read

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

They asked Him for a sign, saying that Moses gave them manna in the desert. If Jesus (according to them) was aspiring to the level of Moses, He should do something as big as that.

and Jesus says something strange to them -- He says Moses didn't give you bread, My father did, and bread that comes down from heaven. Then He says that HE is the bread of life, HE is the manna -- and manna was to be eaten.

The people around Him made the same mistake you did, which is to think he was speaking as a metaphor.

Yet Jesus REPEATED the same thing, saying

48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
And

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

Note -- Jesus doesn't clear up the Metaphor, like he did in Matt. 16:5–12

5 When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread.
6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?
9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

So, Jesus DOES indicate when it is a metaphor and when it isn't.
In this case, look at the reaction of his DISCIPLES, people who had heard his teachings for so long and followed him

60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”...

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

You cannot say that this was just bread and wine of that this is a metphor for coming and having faith in the Lord or some kind of metphor for believing in Christ because of the reaction of the Jews and the very language -- to eat one's flesh and drink the blood means to do violence on some one. You see it even in Hindi where a threat is "Mein tera Khoon pie jaongaa" or "I will drink your blood" -- and this is among vegetarians! To drink a persons blood means a serious threat of injury.So, if you believe that this was just a metphor, you mean to say that Christ is rewarding people for crucifying Him?!! That's nonsensical, sorry.

You cannot even say it was a metaphor by incorreclty comparing it to John 10:9 (I am the gate/doorway) or John 15:1 (I am the true vine) is because this is not referenced in the entire verse in the same way as John 6 which shows the entire incident from start to finish of Jesus saying His body is to be eaten, repeating it and seeing his disciples go and not correcting them (as he did in Matthew 16).

Even in the literal sense -- Christ says he is the gateway to heaven and the vine such that we get nourishment with him as the connecting path. But John 6 is much much more than mere symbolism as He categorically states that "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).

Even at the end of John 6, Jesus rebukes those who think of what He has said as a metaphor by emphasising that

61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

Jesus repeats the rebuke against just thinking in terms of human logic (Calvin's main problem) by saying

John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

Just using human logic as Calvinist thought does, without God's blessings behind it fails in grace.John 6:63 does not refer to Jesus's statement of his own flesh, if you read in context but refers to using human logic instead of dwelling on God's words.

And, all of this is confirmed in Paul's writings to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 10:16)

6 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

and also 1 Cor 11:27-29

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

How clear can Paul get? "The bread IS a participation in the body of Christ" and "who eats the bread... will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" This is not just mere bread and wine anymore. This is the body and blood of Christ.

Finally, the Earliest Christians also said any consideration of this as just a metaphor was false -- Ignature of Antioch (disciple of Apotle John) wrote in AD 110 wrote about heretics who abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (Letter to the SMyrnaens). The earliest Christians beleived this to be the ACTUAL body of Christ. Why, they were also accused by pagans of being cannibals and Justin MArtyr had to write a defence to the Emperor saying "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus"

in view of this overwhelming evidence from scripture and supplemented by the practise and belief of the earliest Christians, we can only say that there IS a real presence in the Eucharist. Martin Luther too believed it -- he said that Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. --> only Calvin/Zwingli turned around what Christ had said

as our Protestant Lutheran brethren say From the Lutheran LCMS.org website

All three accounts of the institution of the Lord's Supper in the Gospels (Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23) explicitly state that Jesus took BREAD, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his disciples saying, "Take, eat; this [i.e., this BREAD, which I have just blessed and broken and am now giving to you] is my body." Jesus uses similar language in referring to "the cup" (of wine) as "his blood."...

Perhaps the most explicit expression of this truth, however, is found in 1 Cor. 10:16-17, where Paul writes: "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."

Paul clearly says here that we all "partake" of "BREAD" when we receive the Lord's Supper--even as we also partake of and "participate in" the true body of Christ. And he says that we all "partake" of the wine (the cup), even as we also partake of the true blood of Christ.

Similarly, in 1 Cor. 11:26, Paul says: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." Paul expressly states here ........................that those who eat this bread and drink this cup are also partaking of the true body and blood of Christ.

So "real" is this participation in Christ's body and blood, in fact, that (according to Paul) those who partake of the bread and wine "in an unworthy manner" are actually guilty of "profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27). (Partaking of the Lord's Supper "in a worthy manner," of course, is not something that we "do" or "accomplish" on the basis of our "personal holiness" or "good works." It means receiving God's free and gracious gifts of life and forgiveness offered in the Lord's Supper in true repentance produced by the work of the Spirit through God's Law and in true faith in Christ and his promises produced by God's Spirit through the Gospel).

[Pikachu_Dad]

Nice effects !

Thinking some more...

So for what purposes does she eat animals?

"I don't even eat animals any more, "for digestive purposes."

[Cronos]

why the eating? you’re right to ask. Eating is a physical activity. So similar to the eating of Manna - Christ is the physical food

[Bayard]

Can we not obtain salvation without the eating of the son of God? Maybe this belief to do so ensures the "remembrance of him"...

Jesus Himself said otherwise. Jn 6:53) unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you

[F450-V10]

As a conservative Catholic I really like your answer.

[Fester Chugabrew]

THE SACRAMENT OF THE ALTAR,
OR, THE LORD’S SUPPER.
In the plain form in which it is to be taught by the head of a family.

What is the Sacrament of the Altar?

Ans. It is the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, given unto us Christians to eat and to drink, as it was instituted by Christ Himself.

Where is it so written?

Ans. The Holy Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, together with St. Paul, write thus:

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread: and when He had given thanks, He brake it, and gave it to His disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my Body, which is given for you: this do, in remembrance of Me.

“After the same manner also He took the cup, when He had supped, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it: this cup is the new testament in my Blood, which is shed for you, for the remission of sins: this do, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

What benefits are derived from such eating and drinking?

Ans. They are pointed out in these words; “given and shed for you, for the remission of sins.” Namely, through these words, the remission of sins, life and salvation are granted unto us in the Sacrament. For where there is remission of sins, there are also life and salvation.

How can the bodily eating and drinking produce such great effects?

Ans. The eating and the drinking, indeed, do not produce them, but the words which stand here, namely: “given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins.” These words are, besides the bodily eating and drinking, the chief things in the Sacrament; and he who believes these words, has that which they declare and set forth, namely, the remission of sins.

Who is it, then, that receives this Sacrament worthily?

Ans. Fasting and bodily preparation are indeed a good external discipline; but he is truly worthy and well prepared who believes these words, “given and shed for you, for the remission of sins.” But he who does not believe these words, or who doubts, is unworthy and unfit: for the words: “FOR YOU,” require truly believing hearts.

[dangus]

Just finished watching Avengers: End Game.

Spoiler alert!

At every turn, as in nearly every science-fiction/mythology movie, the heroes have to sacrifice themselves to be worthy to fight for goodness. From the soul stone, to wielding Thor’s hammer. This is because we demand to see such sacrifice from heroes to believe in them. That’s why Jesus died.

We also believe worthiness comes from blood. Why should Simba be the Lion King?

It wasn’t enough for Jesus to die... because he knew he would be raised from the dead. Harry Potter didn’t know he’d live to see Voldemort dead. And [WHOOPS! Spoiler alert] really did die for the soul stone, and [WHOOPS! Spoiler Alert] really did die to snap to save the universe. Time and time and time again, various avengers THOUGHT they were sacrificing their lives. On the other hand, Doctor Who literally died a billion times over, and not once did anyone count it as the ultimate sacrifice. It’s the belief in the finality of death that makes it effective.

No, Jesus had to do more than die. He had to be consumed in the flesh. And he said so. Several times throughout the bible. It’s shocking, the hardest thing in the universe to understand. And the bible made quite plain, it’s what drove away all of his followers. He never said, “No! You don’t get it... it’s just a metaphor!” And he certainly didn’t mean to con us into putting out faith in him.

I don’t mean to say our stupid, primitive superstitions are why Jesus died and demanded he be eaten in the flesh. But I’m guessing you’ve explored many of the more abstract theological reasons offered, and need something more tangible, something more innate. He offered himself to be eaten, because it’s what we demanded on a most instinctive level.