Posted on 11/20/2020 6:19:59 AM PST by Teleios Research
I agree: "charisma" means gift, which means it is free, though sometimes two words can reinforce a meaning, yet I never got in this debate. Thus I think you meant to respond to someone. "The rest of your post is simply more recourse to parroting propaganda in lie of an actual argument" refers to the Catholic adversary, not you, but whom I copied in to ping those who were engaged in debate with her(?).
Basically it was a grammar thing and it evolved into a religious thing; I see the words “free gift” on many adverts and was just questioning the redundancy of using free attached to gift.
Indeed, and the biggest department is in religion, and as shown, with the Catholic church taking up the most space on the broad way to destruction, standing in critical and overall contrast to the church of Scripture, though mixing Truth with error.
Acts 10:43-47 refers to the forgiveness of sins by Baptism, not future sins “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” FYI one sentence or phrase is not sufficient proof of Christ’s teachings, one should understand the whole.
Which is exactly what you do (quoting one sentence or phrase) and not do (examining the context and relevant texts, for rather than the forgiveness of sins by Baptism - which according to Rome the very act effects - the text which you left but I quoted clearly states that whoever believes on the risen Lord receives forgiveness, and which washing of regeneration these souls were shown and said to have received PRIOR to baptism, and with Peter going on to confirm that God gave them the holy Spirit and purified their hearts BY FAITH, which occurred prior to baptism, but which faith was formally expressed by that act.
Instead of compelling Scripture to support what you believe, why will you not admit that these souls experienced the washing of regeneration prior to baptism? Rather than accusing the one who reproves your error, why not admit that you are committed to believing whatever your church teaches (or you think it does) regardless of being clearly shown what Scripture says to the contrary?
Your comment: “for salvation is not based on Christ’s judgment for they are already saved or lost before any judgment, and instead salvation is based upon heart-purifying regenerating effectual living faith,’ I see your comments as your ignorance of God’s Truth. “For judgement, I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” John 9:39
It is evident that while you can see what you want that is not what Scripture says, and the ignorance here is on you. Salvation cannot be based upon judgment since salvation is obtained before the judgment of the saved and of the lost, and souls are either born again children of God by effectual faith in this life or they are of the devil. And not only does God know this beforehand but so can believers know. Paul knew the Thessalonians were of the elect (1 Thessalonians 1:4) and John provides for and states that believers can know they presently possess eternal life, and know if others are children of God or not. (1 John 3:8,10; 5:13)
The judgment at the end of the reign of Christ (Matthew 13:41) formally manifests who is saved or not, being wheat or tares, but believers on earth have already been separated (Matthew 13:41) and faced the judgment seat of Christ reigned with the Lord for 1,000 years, and fought with Him in the battle of Armageddon. (Jude 1:14; Revelation 19:14)
Thus you need to read what pertains to this issue, and not some isolated texts such as from the gospels. As for ignorance of God’s Truth and “For judgement, I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind,” (John 9:39) in CONTEXT this does not refers to the day of judgment or waiting until them to see if you are saved, but to Christ judging in the sense of punishing lost souls by making them face manifest Truth that they did not want to face, and thus are judicially blinded. Which is according to the principle, "Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth." (John 12:35)
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. (John 9:39-41)
Thus again you are guilty of the very thing you falsely charge your reprover with.
Your comment: “ But it is also wrong to state that a soul cannot know that they presently are saved (having examined themselves if they are in the faith, and to which the Spirit witnesses: 2 Co. 13:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Romans 8:14-16), possessing eternal life (1 Jn. 5:13) and would go directly to forever be with the Lord at death or at His coming (see above), and which a Catholic cannot say.
There is no promise of absolute assurance of salvation anywhere in God’s Truth. “once saved, always saved” is a protestant theory that is false that probably comes from Satan. All can have hope until the end. Heb 6:11 Why does one need to repent if there is assurance of salvation (if Christ’s death forgave all future sins)? Acts 8:22
What are you arguing against something I never taught but stated to the contrary - right above the text you are citing as teaching OSAS? In which I actually stated, "To claim a believer can never fall away from the faith - fall from grace, draw back unto perdition, make Christ of no salvific effect, to not profit for them - is wrong, (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39) and which I nowhere defended."
However, the issue is that which I actually taught, and which you seem to want to avoid with your OSAS objection, which is that a soul can know that they presently are saved (having examined themselves if they are in the faith, and to which the Spirit witnesses: 2 Co. 13:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Romans 8:14-16), possessing eternal life (1 Jn. 5:13) and would go directly to forever be with the Lord at death or at His coming...
Why not just admit this is true rather than misconstruing what I argued?
The rest of your post with its robotic mere fallacious assertions that you can only wish were true provides more testimony to the case of why one should not be a Catholic, which you have thus far provided more support to. But if you want to continue...
St Paul stated (Phil 2:12) “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”
Make continued efforts at living the Gospel and pursuing your heavenly reward. Our initial salvation through Baptism has nothing to do with works, our final salvation depends on a lifetime of keeping the faith (2 Tim 4:7-8), following the commandments (My 19:17), preserving in good works (Rom 2:7) striving for holiness (Heb 12:14), praying in earnest (1 Thess 5:17), and fighting against evil (Rom 8:13).
God encourages us with his graces both to desire and to act what pleases God. Many may believe that they have assurance of salvation, but they may not admit that they do not fully accept God’s revealed truth. So their faith may not be genuine and true. For example, many do not accept that Jesus established the Catholic Church for our salvation, and Jesus established the Sacraments, including Baptism, Eucharist and Confession as needed for our salvation.
Remember that the Pharisees believed that they had true faith, and Jesus told them otherwise. John 9;39-41
While I am not the Merciful and Just Judge, Jesus told us the way is hard and the gate is narrow. So I hope all will accept God’s Truth and not man-made opinions.
Your comment: “The rest of your post with its robotic mere fallacious assertions that you can only wish were true provides more testimony to the case of why one should not be a Catholic, which you have thus far provided more support to. But if you want to continue...”
Again, you present your man-made opinions without substance and ignore the Bible postings that explains Christ’s teachings (which you reject) that I have provided. You are right I am not going to be able help you understand God’s Truths if one has a hardened heart and you have not provided any truths that change the catholic faith that Jesus taught.
In regard to “once saved always saved” is a protestant teaching and while you have rejected that particular teaching, it is one of many erroneous protestant teachings. Christ teachings are the Truth and should not be changed to meet various protestant denominations.
Faith is both a relationship with God as well as an engagement with the truths that he reveals. Our faith encounter with God’s revealed message takes time and maturity to probe its meaning.
Protestantism in its various forms is following man-made dogma in the belief that it follows Scripture. It rejects the Catholic Church, most of Christ’s Sacraments and some of God’s revealed truth. When protestants reject the real presence of Jesus (Body and Blood) in the Eucharist, they reject a key element of God’s revealed truth.
Indeed as I have expressed, believers must continue in the faith, which God enables and motivates, and not rebel and even fall away, which is the only thing we can take credit for. Thus again you are responding to me with an argument against something I did not say.
. Our initial salvation through Baptism has nothing to do with works,
Actually in Catholic soteriology it does indeed have to do with works, as in a work performed by man making one good enough to enter Heaven, versus penitent heart-purifying regenerating faith being counted for righteousness, as shown you from Scripture and denied.
Many may believe that they have assurance of salvation, but they may not admit that they do not fully accept God’s revealed truth. So their faith may not be genuine and true. For example, many do not accept that Jesus established the Catholic Church for our salvation, and Jesus established the Sacraments, including Baptism, Eucharist and Confession as needed for our salvation.
Which again is a mere bombastic assertion, since while indeed observing baptism and the Lord's supper and confessing sins to each other is part of saving faith, what you mean by it is not Scriptural, as shown at length, yet as usual, your response is to simply parrot assertions you can only wish were true
Again, you present your man-made opinions without substance and ignore the Bible postings that explains Christ’s teachings (which you reject) that I have provided
What?! I am the one showing you in context and in conjunction with relevant other passages that Scripture refutes you, while your argumentation is as if making assertions and pasting some texts establishes your claims, despite my refuting them. Thus your present recourse is once again this sophistry, accusing me of what you are the one guilty of.
Protestantism in its various forms is following man-made dogma in the belief that it follows Scripture. It rejects the Catholic Church, most of Christ’s Sacraments and some of God’s revealed truth. When protestants reject the real presence of Jesus (Body and Blood) in the Eucharist, they reject a key element of God’s revealed truth.
More spitwad assertions, while besides other errors, you were shown that your contrivance of the Lord's supper is not what the NT church believed, based upon what is manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).
It is no wonder we suspect Catholics imagine they obtain some sort of indulgence for continually parroting their propaganda despite it being refuted again and again for all to see. Which means as said, the argument you have effectively provided is that one should be a Catholic. This thread is pretty dead anyway. Go find another RC to argue your case, for your responses warrant being ignored.
May God peradventure grant you "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25)
your comment: “May God peradventure grant you “repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.” (2 Timothy 2:25)”
Your opinion of the Catholic faith is in error.
Faith is necessary for salvation. Faith is a gift of God which enables us to know and love him. but living in faith is not possible unless there is action on our part. Faith is therefore a relationship with God as well as an engagement with the truths that he reveals. Faith is both the act by which we accept God’s word and the content of what he has revealed to us.
To the extent that many reject Christ’s truths and follow man-made false teaching, their faith will be questioned when Christ judges us upon our death.
Paul cautions Timothy about the moral depravity that is rampant among false teachers. 2 Tim 3:1-19
More mere argument by unsubstantiated invalid refuted assertion.
Faith is necessary for salvation. Faith is a gift of God which enables us to know and love him. but living in faith is not possible unless there is action on our part.
After so much patient instruction from Scripture and reason you still do not get it. You have it in reverse, the cart before the horse, for action are a result of faith, not what work faith. You only do things - from speaking to acting - because of what you believe, from what food you choose to what surgeon you might choose. "I believed, therefore have I spoken." (Psalms 116:10) Read Hebrews 11.
To the extent that many reject Christ’s truths and follow man-made false teaching, their faith will be questioned when Christ judges us upon our death. Paul cautions Timothy about the moral depravity that is rampant among false teachers. 2 Tim 3:1-19
Indeed, and Catholics both testify to sanctioning immorality far more that those of the class you who malign, and the widespread occurrence of it even among prelates preceded the needed if imperfect Reformation, and abound in your church today, which manifestly considers even proabortion, prohomosexal public figures as members in life and in death.
Yet you would have us leave our conservative evangelical fellowships to become brethren with them as well as you, and be part of the most manifest deformation of the NT church. No thanks. And as said, your bombastic argumentation itself an argument against being a Catholic.
Yes, the Catholic Church admits many errors and scandals over the years. However, the Catholic Church has kept the Truth of God over the centuries. Even though there are many sinners in the Catholic Church, including leaders that follow evil ways, the Catholic faith does not condone the sinfulness or evil ways. Each Catholic will be judged by Jesus. Hopefully they will change their ways and seek forgiveness before their death.
One should not leave the Catholic Church or God’s Truth to follow man-made false teachings. By our Baptism, we are made part of the Body of Christ - His Church and we have a faith responsibility to know and love God including all His revealed truths.We are taught in Matthew 18:15-20 how to handle a brothers’ sins. We are not taught to have multiple churches or multiple doctrines.
“I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom oh Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” Matthew 16:16-19
For our salvation, each of us needs to seek God’s Truth and accept it and live it.
https://www.catholic.com/video/what-does-the-church-teach-about-salvation-for-protestants
Do you realize how intellectually repulsive your practice of parroting the same propaganda that has been refuted is, as if that drone-like recourse somehow makes it true?! One might as well as arguing with a disciple of the Moon. As said, your argumentation is an argument for not being a Catholic.
Even though there are many sinners in the Catholic Church, including leaders that follow evil ways, the Catholic faith does not condone the sinfulness or evil ways.
It does indeed implicitly condone it, since in Scripture what you believe is manifest by what you do, (James 2:18)and the hearers of the word look for its interpretation by how the preachers of it translate it into their own lives. And by manifestly affirming even proabortion, prohomosexal public figures as members in life and in death - replete with ecclesiastical funerals for such Ted Kennedy Catholics - then the Vatican is effectually showing its interpretation of its teaching, including canon law.
One should not leave the Catholic Church or God’s Truth to follow man-made false teachings.
Which response borders on insolence after being shown that distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels).
By our Baptism, we are made part of the Body of Christ
Likewise this prevaricating parroting after being shown that it is the penitent heart-purifying regenerating faith that is expressed in baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) that is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) whereby the redeemed soul is "accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:6) And the same will go to be with the Lord at death or at His return (Luke 23:43 [cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff; 1Thess. 4:17 ) if they have preserved in faith. (Heb. 3:9-14; 10:25-39; Gal. 5:1-4) Glory and thanks be to God.
“I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom oh Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” Matthew 16:16-19
And which is another abuse of Scripture, for 1. as said and ignored, the one true church which the Lord promised to overcome the gates of Hell was and is the body of Christ that the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) and to which He is married, (Eph. 5:25) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.
Secondly, Peter is not the Rock upon whom the church is built, Nowhere interpretive of Mt. 16:18 is Peter called or described as the Rock upon which the church was built. Instead, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Third, the power of binding and loosing is nowhere shown to belong to one leader alone or leadership alone, but as shown you and ignored, judicially this power of both binding and loosing is exercised by leadership in union with the church assenting, and spiritually to all the church.
For our salvation, each of us needs to seek God’s Truth and accept it and live it.
Each Catholic will be judged by Jesus. Hopefully they will change their ways and seek forgiveness before their death.
Indeed. Finally two true statements. May you and all lost Catholics and everyone forsake their accursed gospels and come to God as souls as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation, and not as souls saved by their works or church affiliation, but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may escape their just judgment and gain eternal life. And with contrite hearts place all their faith in the Divine Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who died for our sins and is risen to reign in glory, (1 Peter 2:24; 328,22) and declare this living faith in baptism and following their Lord with humble hearts, (Acts 8:36,37; 10:43–47; 15:7–9) and repent when convicted in heart of not doing so. (Psalm 34:218) Thanks be to God.
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