Posted on 01/04/2019 8:20:14 AM PST by Salvation
Rest on Flight to Egypt, by Caravaggio (1597)
At Christmas we celebrate the Word becoming Flesh, but what does this mean for us today? Fundamentally, it means that our faith is about things that are tangible. As human beings, we have bodies. We have a soul that is spiritual, but it is joined with a body that is physical and material. Hence, it is never enough for our faith to be only about thoughts, philosophies, concepts, or ideas. Their truth must touch the physical part of who we are. Our faith must become flesh; it has to influence our behavior. If that is not the case, then the Holy Spirit, speaking through John, has something to call us: liars!
Therefore, away with sophistry, rationalizations, and intentions. Our faith must become flesh in the way we act and move. God’s love for us in not just a theory or idea. It is a flesh and blood reality that can be seen, heard, and touched. The Word of God and our faith cannot simply remain on the pages of a book or in the recesses of our intellect. They must leap off the pages of the Bible and the Catechism and become flesh in the way we live our life, in the decisions we make, and in the way we use our body, mind, intellect, and will.
Consider the following passage from the liturgy of the Christmas Octave:
The way we may be sure that we know Jesus is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to walk just as he walked (1 John 2:3ff).
Note some teachings that follow from it:
Faith is incarnational. What a practical man John is! Faith is not an abstraction; it is not merely about theories and words on a page. It is about a transformed life; it is about truly loving God and making His commandments manifest in the way we live. It is about loving our neighbor. True faith is incarnational. That is to say, it takes on flesh in our very “body.”
Too many people spout the phrase, “I’ll be with you in spirit.” Perhaps an occasional absence is understandable but after a while the phrase rings hollow. Showing up physically and doing what we say is an essential demonstration of our sincerity. We are body persons and our faith must include a physical, flesh-and-blood dimension.
Keeping the commandments is a sure sign. John said that The way we may be sure that we know Jesus is to keep his commandments. Now be careful of the logic here. The keeping of the commandments is not the cause of faith; it is the fruit of it. It is not the cause of love; it is its fruit.
In Scripture, “knowing” refers to than an intellectual understanding. It refers to deep, intimate, personal experience of the thing or person. It is one thing to know about God; it is quite to “know the Lord.”
In this passage, John is saying that in order to be sure we have deep, intimate, personal experience of God, we must change the way we live. An authentic faith, an authentic knowing of the Lord, will change our behavior in such a way that we keep the commandments as a fruit of that authentic faith and relationship with Him. It means that our faith becomes flesh in us. Theory becomes practice and experience. It changes the way we live and move and have our being.
For a human being, faith cannot be a mere abstraction. In order to be authentic, it must become flesh and blood. In a later passage, John uses the image of walking: This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to walk just as he walked (1 John 2:6). Although walking is a physical activity, it is also symbolic. The very place we take our body is physical, but it is also indicative of what we value, what we think.
Liars – John went on to say, Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar. This is strong language! Either we believe and thus keep the commandments, or we are lying about really knowing the Lord and we fail to keep the commandments.
Don’t all of us struggle to keep the commandments fully? John seems so “all or nothing” in his words, but his point is clear. To know the Lord fully is never to sin (cf 1 John 3:9). If we know him imperfectly, we still experience sin. Hence, the more we know him (remember the definition of “know”) the less we sin. If we still sin, it is a sign that we do not know Him enough.
It is not really John who speaks too absolutely; it is we who do so. We say things like “I have faith,” “I am a believer,” “I love the Lord,” and “I know the Lord.” Perhaps we would be more accurate if we said, “I am growing in faith,” “I am striving to be a better believer,” or “I’m learning to love and know the Lord better and better.” If we do not, then we risk lying. Faith is something we grow in.
Many in the Protestant tradition reduce faith to an event such as answering an altar call or accepting Christ as “personal Lord and savior.” We Catholics do it too. Many Catholics think that all they need to do is be baptized; they don’t bother to attend Mass faithfully as time goes on. Others claim to be “loyal” even “devout” Catholics yet dissent from important Church teachings. Faith is about more than membership. It is about the way we walk, the decisions we make.
Without this harmony between faith and action, we live a lie. We lie to ourselves and to others. The bottom line is that if we really come to know the Lord more and more perfectly, we will grow in holiness, keep the commandments, and be of the mind of Christ. We will walk just as Jesus walked and our claim to have faith will be the truth, not a lie.
Faith and works cannot be separated. This passage does not claim that salvation is by works alone. The keeping of the commandments is not the cause of saving or of real faith. Properly understood, the keeping of the commandments is the result of saving faith actively present and working within us. It indicates that the Lord is saving us from sin and its effects.
The Protestant tradition erred in dividing faith and works. In the 16th century, Protestants claimed that we are saved by “faith alone.” Faith is never alone. It always brings effects with it.
Our brains can get in the way here and tempt us to think that just because we can distinguish or divide something in our mind we can do so in reality, but that is not always the case.
Consider, for a moment, a flame. It has the qualities of heat and light. We can separate the two in our mind but not in reality. I could never take a knife and divide the heat of the flame from its light. They are so interrelated as to be one reality. Yes, heat and light in a flame are distinguishable theoretically, but they are always together in reality.
This is how it is with faith and works. Faith and works are distinguishable theoretically, but the works of true faith and faith itself are always together in reality. We are not saved by works alone or by faith alone; they are together. John teaches here that knowing the Lord by living faith is always accompanied by keeping the commandments and walking as Jesus did.
Therefore, faith is incarnational. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, really and physically. Similarly, our own faith must become flesh in us, in our actual behavior.
Enjoy this incarnational Christmas carol:
Verbum caro factum est The Word was made flesh
Porque todos hos salveis. for the salvation of you all.
Y la Virgen le dezia: And the Virgin said unto him:
‘Vida de la vida mia, ‘Life of my life,
Hijo mio, ¿que os haria, what would I [not] do for you, my Son?
Que no tengo en que os echeis?’ Yet I have nothing on which to lay you down.’
O riquezas terrenales, O worldly riches,
¿No dareis unos pañales will you not give some swaddling clothes
A Jesu que entre animals to Jesus who is born among the animals
Es nasçido segun veis? as you can see?
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Sigh...
HMMMmmm… just WHERE; in the Book that Rome gave the world; is THIS written?
Are you now being like Eve?
Who ADDED "...and not touch it..." to what GOD said to Adam??
Genesis 3:3
HMMMmmm… just WHERE in the Book that Rome gave the world is THIS written?
Are you now being like Eve?
Who ADDED "...and not touch it..." to what GOD said to Adam??
Genesis 3:3
I truly appreciate the help you are trying to give; both to me and no doubt others.
After all; how can one go wrong after reading this??
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar.
Don't you REALLY mean...
No, this one, Brother(?) Elsie.
No more than YOU have obeyed what Jesus said just once many centuries ago:
Since you have obviously un-toodled; you must not be working; right?
Thanks, Daddy, for this spanking.
I will not do it again.
(It IS Daddy; isn't it??)
Now we've put up with your belittling, bragging, boasting, bluster and other "B" words; but this?
THIS takes the cake!!
The gloves are OFF now, Buster!!
1/2 a beast...
https://www.gotquestions.org/father-Matthew-23-9.html
Elsie - while I agree with you (I think!!??), you are always so cryptic.
I thought the above link was interesting. Jesus was against the Jewish leaders raising themselves up as leaders and “fathers”. Too much focus on them, and not on God.
But it is still okay to call our parents Father and Mother (”Honor they father and mother”). I forget who it was (Jehovah Witnesses???) that told me I was a sinner for calling my dad my father. (Okay - I’m a sinner, but not for that).
Our pastor in Sunday School talked about lieing. Numerous examples in the Bible where God lied in order to keep a tactical advantage over the enemy. Of course I don’t remember them all!
The one big one was when he told Moses to “Let my people go”. But God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that it would just be for a few days so that they could worship God out in the desert.
Exodus 8:
26But Moses replied, “It would not be right to do that, because the sacrifices we offer to the LORD our God would be detestable to the Egyptians. If we offer sacrifices that are detestable before the Egyptians, will they not stone us? 27We must make a three-day journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the LORD our God as He commands us.”
28Pharaoh answered, “I will let you go and sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness, but you must not go very far. Now pray for me.”
29“As soon as I leave you,” Moses said, “I will pray to the LORD, so that tomorrow the swarms of flies will depart from Pharaoh and his officials and his people. But Pharaoh must not act deceitfully again by refusing to let the people go and sacrifice to the LORD.”
Along the lines of it is okay to lie to the Nazi at the doorway when he asks if you are hiding any Jews.
This is still absurd as before for besides other things which do not correspond to Purgatory, the context does indeed show that the "loss" is opposite of what is gained, what is received, which is rewards: "If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15. KJV)
And the context is not about personal purity - though the manner of fruit: combustible vs. non-combustible - attests to the character of the builder - but the manner of workmanship one built the church with:
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Corinthians 3:8. KJV) .
Thus while the combustible building material represented here as wood, hay or stubble being burned up means a loss of rewards to the builder, the precious stones gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming ? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus .” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown , so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)
Thus the combustible works one builds the church are indeed burnt up, but the loss is a consequence of that, while one is saved despite this loss - which will mean a grievous suffering of the Lord's disapproval - but not because of the loss.
And which are only some of the obstacles you have in your wresting attempt to read Purgatory into this text, which is untenable even by the very fact that it awaits the 2nd coming of Christ, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) while all believer go to be forever with the Lord at death His coming. (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)
Which simply leaves you desperately grasping at some aspect of 1 Co. 3 to support your tradition, rather than admitting as even your own NAB not do, that this is not speaking of it.
And which means you are unnecessarily taking up more of my time, perhaps on purpose. If you can get another RC here to take up your argument on 1 Cor. 3 then I will engage them, otherwise this exchange needs to end. Which can save you and your church (since such specious apologetics are a fruit of it) from even more embarrassment..
" no one is effectively saved?" No, the difference is that while to varying degrees of grace they are presently blessed (and the many way can be an entire sermon) as souls who presently assuredly have eternal life as 1 John provides for those of the effectual saving obedient faith he describes, they have yet to realize the full experience of this.
Such have been "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," (Hebrews 6:4-5. KJV) and are accepted in the Beloved, and seated with Him in Heaven, and have immediate direct access into the holy of holies ijn Heaven to meet with God. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6; Heb. 10:19)
And such will be realize the full experience of their salvation if they "hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6. KJV) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36. KJV)
However, those who did not prepare themselves as described in Lk. 12:47, "which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will," which means they were walking in disobedience, as well as the ignorant of who did the same, are not of saving faith, and thus will be sentenced as the last judgment to punishment commensurate with the kind of sins and degree of accountability.
It begs the question, why would someone be given many stripes or few stripes if cast into eternal fire and torment? At that point, what difference would it make?
I hope you do not find out, for it surely will make a difference, otherwise you charge Christ with speaking irrelevance thru His Spirit, since He warned of different degrees of punishment,
He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29. KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation . (Matthew 23:14. KJV)
Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (Luke 10:11-12. KJV)
Which is in keeping with the principle that "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." (Luke 12:48. KJV) And if there is no sentencing based upon the kind of sins and accountability then why even have witnesses?
In addition , the same objection of "At that point, what difference would it make?" would also apply to the different degrees of rewards given to believers. For in both cases the recipients are receiving an eternal though contrasting recompense, but there are distinctions in the degrees. Believers are saved by faith in the risen Lord Jesus, and given rewards (in grace) for what they did (though it was God who both enabled and motivated them, to do what they otherwise would not and could not do). Unbelievers are essentially damned due to their unbelief, which renders them liable to being punished according to their sins, relative to their degree of accountability.
In any case, among other things, Luke 12:41-49 simply does not correspond to Purgatory since the punishment spoen of does not take place until He returns, "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching." (Luke 12:37. KJV)
Since you cannot even overcome this obstacle, while the different degrees of punishment easily corresponds to the final judgment, then there is no use trying spin the rest to support your vain tradition.
In all this and on 1 Co. 3, rather than showing a willingness to go wherever the Truth of Scripture leads as best evidenced, you have continually insisted on vainly attempting read what your church teaches into the texts, thus abusing Scripture as a servant compelled to support your elitist church. To you own damnation.
Wrong, for the context is future, and you can lose something that is yours to take if you fulfil the conditions, thus the warning "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." (Revelation 3:11. KJV) And as shown, fruit such as the Philippians were Paul's “joy and crown” (Phil. 4:1) but which crowns are not given until the Lord comes. But by your logic, no man could take their crown since they had not yet received it.
Thus the suffering of loss refers to what he would have at the judgment, that just as fruit such as the Philippians would mean the obtaining of a reward, losing this work (which is also suffering loss) meant losing the reward.
The "loss" for one saved by fire does not fit this pattern, uses a different Greek word (which means lose one's soul every time when used by the Messiah. In the Apostle's case, it seems to me, he specifically added "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" so that the text not be miscontrued as losing one's soul, yet he did not add "suffer loss of reward."
That is more desperation, for if you want to resort to the Greek which can have varied shades of meaning, the same word (apollumi) for lose in Mt. 10:42 is actually used for losing reward:
Look to yourselves, that we lose (apollumi) not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. (2Jn 1:8
And once again, even if you had a valid point, the judgment at issue here is of believers who are already in the presence of the Lord, and occurs when He comes, which itself excludes this fom being Purgatory, despite you attempts to gain a foothold .
In conclusion, there simply has been and is no way for you to make Luke 12:41-48 and 1 Co. 3 to mean RC Purgatory, and i am not going to take more time refuting your desperate and apparently compelled attempts. May be you think this will gain you an indulgence, but the only indulgence has been by meet in even taking the time to expose RC sophistry for what it is.
Over and out.
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