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To: af_vet_1981
If one holds that the other two types of servants punished are at the final judgment, and one holds that any punishment at the final judgment indicates hell (thus removing their names from the book of life and subjecting them to eternal damnation, for they were "little flock") then no one is effectively saved until they are judged and not punished (found watching (their behavior) and doing everything the LORD commanded)

" no one is effectively saved?" No, the difference is that while to varying degrees of grace they are presently blessed (and the many way can be an entire sermon) as souls who presently assuredly have eternal life as 1 John provides for those of the effectual saving obedient faith he describes, they have yet to realize the full experience of this.

Such have been "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," (Hebrews 6:4-5. KJV) and are accepted in the Beloved, and seated with Him in Heaven, and have immediate direct access into the holy of holies ijn Heaven to meet with God. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6; Heb. 10:19)

And such will be realize the full experience of their salvation if they "hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6. KJV) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36. KJV)

However, those who did not prepare themselves as described in Lk. 12:47, "which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will," which means they were walking in disobedience, as well as the ignorant of who did the same, are not of saving faith, and thus will be sentenced as the last judgment to punishment commensurate with the kind of sins and degree of accountability.

It begs the question, why would someone be given many stripes or few stripes if cast into eternal fire and torment? At that point, what difference would it make?

I hope you do not find out, for it surely will make a difference, otherwise you charge Christ with speaking irrelevance thru His Spirit, since He warned of different degrees of punishment,

He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29. KJV)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation . (Matthew 23:14. KJV)

Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (Luke 10:11-12. KJV)

Which is in keeping with the principle that "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." (Luke 12:48. KJV) And if there is no sentencing based upon the kind of sins and accountability then why even have witnesses?

In addition , the same objection of "At that point, what difference would it make?" would also apply to the different degrees of rewards given to believers. For in both cases the recipients are receiving an eternal though contrasting recompense, but there are distinctions in the degrees. Believers are saved by faith in the risen Lord Jesus, and given rewards (in grace) for what they did (though it was God who both enabled and motivated them, to do what they otherwise would not and could not do). Unbelievers are essentially damned due to their unbelief, which renders them liable to being punished according to their sins, relative to their degree of accountability.

In any case, among other things, Luke 12:41-49 simply does not correspond to Purgatory since the punishment spoen of does not take place until He returns, "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching." (Luke 12:37. KJV)

Since you cannot even overcome this obstacle, while the different degrees of punishment easily corresponds to the final judgment, then there is no use trying spin the rest to support your vain tradition.

In all this and on 1 Co. 3, rather than showing a willingness to go wherever the Truth of Scripture leads as best evidenced, you have continually insisted on vainly attempting read what your church teaches into the texts, thus abusing Scripture as a servant compelled to support your elitist church. To you own damnation.

339 posted on 01/13/2019 10:28:24 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: daniel1212
Such have been "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," (Hebrews 6:4-5. KJV) and are accepted in the Beloved, and seated with Him in Heaven, and have immediate direct access into the holy of holies ijn Heaven to meet with God. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6; Heb. 10:19)

And such will be realize the full experience of their salvation if they "hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6. KJV)




It looks like there is concurrence that "those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," will only realize the full experience of their salvation upon persevering until their death or the Messiah's return.

Christians are saved but can fall away and be lost, per that reference to Hebrews.
343 posted on 01/13/2019 4:41:31 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: daniel1212
Agree there will be different levels of punishment in hell, yet that was not the point. The one in charge, who mistreated others, would be cut in two and assigned his portion with unbelievers, and his infraction was the worst in the passage. Those with stripes were not assigned a portion with the unbelievers in the actual scriptural text. The point was, given the depth of agony of suffering in hell, whether there could be a relatively mild punishment (stripes) for relatively mild infractions then followed by utter agony for all eternity. That does not make sense. God is the God of mercy and justice.

Since the punishment is eternal it makes sense there are different levels of eternal punishment in hell, but not "few stripes." That leads to hell being but a punishment of "few stripes" for those who did not know the LORD's will and broke His laws, and "many stripes" for those that knew, but did not prepare and obey. Thus hell would not be torment and agony for those disciples who fell short, but something far less than that dependent on one's works while supposed to be on duty watching as it were.

For example, we read the various levels of punishment amongst the brethren (from minor punishment to danger of hell), a brother can go to some place of prison and yet be released after payment (and this is not about shekels):

  • Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
  • For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
  • Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
  • For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
  • Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
  • But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
  • Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
  • Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
  • Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
  • Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses seventeen to twenty six ,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

345 posted on 01/13/2019 5:17:34 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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