Posted on 01/04/2019 8:20:14 AM PST by Salvation
Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Sigh...
HMMMmmm just WHERE; in the Book that Rome gave the world; is THIS written?
Are you now being like Eve?
Who ADDED "...and not touch it..." to what GOD said to Adam??
Genesis 3:3
HMMMmmm just WHERE in the Book that Rome gave the world is THIS written?
Are you now being like Eve?
Who ADDED "...and not touch it..." to what GOD said to Adam??
Genesis 3:3
I truly appreciate the help you are trying to give; both to me and no doubt others.
After all; how can one go wrong after reading this??
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Sometimes a cigar is merely a cigar.
Don't you REALLY mean...
No, this one, Brother(?) Elsie.
No more than YOU have obeyed what Jesus said just once many centuries ago:
Since you have obviously un-toodled; you must not be working; right?
Thanks, Daddy, for this spanking.
I will not do it again.
(It IS Daddy; isn't it??)
Now we've put up with your belittling, bragging, boasting, bluster and other "B" words; but this?
THIS takes the cake!!
The gloves are OFF now, Buster!!
1/2 a beast...
https://www.gotquestions.org/father-Matthew-23-9.html
Elsie - while I agree with you (I think!!??), you are always so cryptic.
I thought the above link was interesting. Jesus was against the Jewish leaders raising themselves up as leaders and “fathers”. Too much focus on them, and not on God.
But it is still okay to call our parents Father and Mother (”Honor they father and mother”). I forget who it was (Jehovah Witnesses???) that told me I was a sinner for calling my dad my father. (Okay - I’m a sinner, but not for that).
Our pastor in Sunday School talked about lieing. Numerous examples in the Bible where God lied in order to keep a tactical advantage over the enemy. Of course I don’t remember them all!
The one big one was when he told Moses to “Let my people go”. But God told Moses to tell Pharaoh that it would just be for a few days so that they could worship God out in the desert.
Exodus 8:
26But Moses replied, It would not be right to do that, because the sacrifices we offer to the LORD our God would be detestable to the Egyptians. If we offer sacrifices that are detestable before the Egyptians, will they not stone us? 27We must make a three-day journey into the wilderness and sacrifice to the LORD our God as He commands us.
28Pharaoh answered, I will let you go and sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness, but you must not go very far. Now pray for me.
29As soon as I leave you, Moses said, I will pray to the LORD, so that tomorrow the swarms of flies will depart from Pharaoh and his officials and his people. But Pharaoh must not act deceitfully again by refusing to let the people go and sacrifice to the LORD.
Along the lines of it is okay to lie to the Nazi at the doorway when he asks if you are hiding any Jews.
This is still absurd as before for besides other things which do not correspond to Purgatory, the context does indeed show that the "loss" is opposite of what is gained, what is received, which is rewards: "If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15. KJV)
And the context is not about personal purity - though the manner of fruit: combustible vs. non-combustible - attests to the character of the builder - but the manner of workmanship one built the church with:
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (1 Corinthians 3:8. KJV) .
Thus while the combustible building material represented here as wood, hay or stubble being burned up means a loss of rewards to the builder, the precious stones gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming ? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus . 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being my joy and crown , so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved. (Phil. 4:1)
Thus the combustible works one builds the church are indeed burnt up, but the loss is a consequence of that, while one is saved despite this loss - which will mean a grievous suffering of the Lord's disapproval - but not because of the loss.
And which are only some of the obstacles you have in your wresting attempt to read Purgatory into this text, which is untenable even by the very fact that it awaits the 2nd coming of Christ, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) while all believer go to be forever with the Lord at death His coming. (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [we]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)
Which simply leaves you desperately grasping at some aspect of 1 Co. 3 to support your tradition, rather than admitting as even your own NAB not do, that this is not speaking of it.
And which means you are unnecessarily taking up more of my time, perhaps on purpose. If you can get another RC here to take up your argument on 1 Cor. 3 then I will engage them, otherwise this exchange needs to end. Which can save you and your church (since such specious apologetics are a fruit of it) from even more embarrassment..
" no one is effectively saved?" No, the difference is that while to varying degrees of grace they are presently blessed (and the many way can be an entire sermon) as souls who presently assuredly have eternal life as 1 John provides for those of the effectual saving obedient faith he describes, they have yet to realize the full experience of this.
Such have been "enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come," (Hebrews 6:4-5. KJV) and are accepted in the Beloved, and seated with Him in Heaven, and have immediate direct access into the holy of holies ijn Heaven to meet with God. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6; Heb. 10:19)
And such will be realize the full experience of their salvation if they "hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6. KJV) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. (Hebrews 10:36. KJV)
However, those who did not prepare themselves as described in Lk. 12:47, "which knew his lords will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will," which means they were walking in disobedience, as well as the ignorant of who did the same, are not of saving faith, and thus will be sentenced as the last judgment to punishment commensurate with the kind of sins and degree of accountability.
It begs the question, why would someone be given many stripes or few stripes if cast into eternal fire and torment? At that point, what difference would it make?
I hope you do not find out, for it surely will make a difference, otherwise you charge Christ with speaking irrelevance thru His Spirit, since He warned of different degrees of punishment,
He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29. KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation . (Matthew 23:14. KJV)
Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (Luke 10:11-12. KJV)
Which is in keeping with the principle that "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required." (Luke 12:48. KJV) And if there is no sentencing based upon the kind of sins and accountability then why even have witnesses?
In addition , the same objection of "At that point, what difference would it make?" would also apply to the different degrees of rewards given to believers. For in both cases the recipients are receiving an eternal though contrasting recompense, but there are distinctions in the degrees. Believers are saved by faith in the risen Lord Jesus, and given rewards (in grace) for what they did (though it was God who both enabled and motivated them, to do what they otherwise would not and could not do). Unbelievers are essentially damned due to their unbelief, which renders them liable to being punished according to their sins, relative to their degree of accountability.
In any case, among other things, Luke 12:41-49 simply does not correspond to Purgatory since the punishment spoen of does not take place until He returns, "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching." (Luke 12:37. KJV)
Since you cannot even overcome this obstacle, while the different degrees of punishment easily corresponds to the final judgment, then there is no use trying spin the rest to support your vain tradition.
In all this and on 1 Co. 3, rather than showing a willingness to go wherever the Truth of Scripture leads as best evidenced, you have continually insisted on vainly attempting read what your church teaches into the texts, thus abusing Scripture as a servant compelled to support your elitist church. To you own damnation.
Wrong, for the context is future, and you can lose something that is yours to take if you fulfil the conditions, thus the warning "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." (Revelation 3:11. KJV) And as shown, fruit such as the Philippians were Paul's joy and crown (Phil. 4:1) but which crowns are not given until the Lord comes. But by your logic, no man could take their crown since they had not yet received it.
Thus the suffering of loss refers to what he would have at the judgment, that just as fruit such as the Philippians would mean the obtaining of a reward, losing this work (which is also suffering loss) meant losing the reward.
The "loss" for one saved by fire does not fit this pattern, uses a different Greek word (which means lose one's soul every time when used by the Messiah. In the Apostle's case, it seems to me, he specifically added "but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" so that the text not be miscontrued as losing one's soul, yet he did not add "suffer loss of reward."
That is more desperation, for if you want to resort to the Greek which can have varied shades of meaning, the same word (apollumi) for lose in Mt. 10:42 is actually used for losing reward:
Look to yourselves, that we lose (apollumi) not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. (2Jn 1:8
And once again, even if you had a valid point, the judgment at issue here is of believers who are already in the presence of the Lord, and occurs when He comes, which itself excludes this fom being Purgatory, despite you attempts to gain a foothold .
In conclusion, there simply has been and is no way for you to make Luke 12:41-48 and 1 Co. 3 to mean RC Purgatory, and i am not going to take more time refuting your desperate and apparently compelled attempts. May be you think this will gain you an indulgence, but the only indulgence has been by meet in even taking the time to expose RC sophistry for what it is.
Over and out.
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