Scripture Does Not Tell Us to Storm the Gates of Hell

I never said or implied "ONLY a carnal reference." You seem to be reading your own assumptions into my words. If you will review previous statements, you will note that I distinguish between the literal, the symbolic and the sacramental.

Thus the "literal" (or carnal or physiological) idea of the Eucharist must be rejected, because by definition it would require physical and chemical characteristics (called "accidents") which are absent in the Sacred consecrated Eucharistic Host and Wine.

For instance, the Host does not have a skeletal structure. It is not carrying on metabolic processes. It does not have cardiac and renal function and a BBT.

I clearly exclude a carnal interpretation.

You think you refute my statements, but you only refute things I didn’t say.

You are carnally minded. Even exposing such with your ‘sacramental’ insistence, which is, even if you cannot see it or admit it, a reference to pride of self, working for salvation. I don’t need to refute your posts, just expose the non-Christian nature inherent in them.

"...‘sacramental’ insistence, which is, even if you cannot see it or admit it, a reference to pride of self..."

Yet again, you inject your own assumptions rather than responding to what I actually said.

What I actually said was "Jesus made these offers because He loved these people." That includes the Eucharist. The sacraments are gifts. They are not expressions of pride of self or achievements or works of man!

Rather than continue this futile business of producing your own versions of what you think I said, and them refuting what you produced, why don't you just tell us about YOUR walk with the Lord?

Simply tell us your story.

That would be much more interesting. I'd be interested. And it would be less prone to polemical misstatement.

Have you ever seen the energizer machine at the St. Louis Science Center?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW9sc5z0XvY

In John 6, He insists that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, because His flesh is “true food” and His blood “true drink”. True. Real. A hard saying.

Then He must have had an "Oh; WAIT... there's MORE!" moment, because just earlier in the discourse He was asked a DIRECT question and He gave a DIRECT answer: Neither of which can be metaphorically whiffed away by the Imperial Hand.

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

He rejected Jesus’ counsel of perfection.

Call no man father...

You think you refute my statements, but you only refute things I didn’t say.

You have the art of NOT saying stuff down to a science.

The sacraments are gifts.

Of Rome: what you DIDN'T say.

Rube Goldberg approves!

Somewhere; buried under the stack of obsolete computers in my basement; is a program that probably runs on a 3.1 machine; that let’s you build a virtual machine in your computer that contains many of the things seen in this video.

I’ve wasted a BUNCH of hours playing with that!

My eye is also drawn to the plastic toys in the Toys “R” us store that let you build REAL working things quite similar but, of course, much smaller.

The Sacraments are gifts........."Of Rome"? Factually incorrect.

The great Patriarchal cities of Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch, and Alexandria would be perplexed to hear they'd gotten everything from "Rome". As well as the local Christian Churches in Malta, Crete, Cyprus; Persia and Ethiopia (which were evangelized by Matthew); the Scythians and Thracians (evangelized by Andrew); the Parthians, Medes, Bactrians, and Margians (evangelized by Thomas, who traveled East with the Gospel and died in India); Phrygia (Philip, who was crucified in Hierapolis); Edessa, Mesopotamia (Thaddaeus, who died at Berytus); Armenia (Bartholomew, who reputedly planted churches also in Ethiopia and Southern Arabia) --- all these, who received the Sacraments from the Apostes, would wonder why anybody would say that they had gotten them as gifts from "Rome".

The Sacraments are gifts of God; instituted by Christ; handed on via the Apostles; subsisting still in all the Churches founded by them.

There were Sacraments---- instituted by Christ --- before Peter and Paul even got to Rome.

I love every clue I can get about this history. The Catholic Church would not be, in a fully orbed sense, "Catholic" without these Churches. It's hugely enlightening.

And if I didn't say something, I would appreciate it if you would not peck out your own flight of fancy and pretend it came from my mouth (or keyboard.) It's just useless. It's a waste of your time, and mine.

Now, this is what is so amazing. Your point makes my point.

"Believe in the One He has sent."

And later in the very same chapter:

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. "

We believe that..BECAUSE it was taught by the Holy One of God: we believe in the One He sent.

This was taught by Him in whom we believe, and in the Church which is His Body. As He said to His 72 disciples, the nucleus of His Church: “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Berean Study Bible

Tagline.

Now, this is what is so amazing. Your point makes my point.

"Believe in the One He has sent."

OK, believe Him. Later in the very same chapter:

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. "

You believe that?

We believe that..BECAUSE it was taught by the Holy One of God: we believe in the One He sent.

This was taught by Him in whom we believe, and in the Church which is His Body. As He said to His 72 disciples, the nucleus of His Church: “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Berean Study Bible

Tagline.

Your verbiage sounds so reasonable, yet is so bankrupt.

First, do you believe you receive the Divinity of Jesus into your spirit when you partake of the Eucharist?

Second, can you 'run out of' or 'lose' this Divinity of Jesus so that it must be renewed in your spirit?

IF you answer those two questions honestly, then we will have grounds upon which to proceed. A long, catholic reply which does not directly answer those two questions will show what spirit is within you. Satan has a mastery of sophistry, the same sophistry with which you defend the blasphemies of your religion of catholiciism.

Do you know the meaning of duplicitousness? Do you understand that duplicitousness is deceit? Do you understand the Genesis commandment to not eat the blood, for the life is in the blood? Do you see that when Peter was at meat with Jesus on the night before the Cross that Peter was one of the generations of those to whom the commandment against taking the blood of the creature into their alimentary tracts?

If God, Who knows the end from the beginning, gives a commandment to ALL the generations, do you see how it is duplicitous to give that command knowing He Himself would violate that command at a future date? Your religion insists that the evening Passove meal gathering was the first Eucharist, yet Jesus had not yet gone to the Cross for our redemption. Think about it ...

Your unwillingness to answer those simple questions is revealing. Perhaps you secretly know a catholic answer will be outside the Truth of Christianity? ...

John 6 has been so thoroughly mangled in Catholic theology that catholics cannot even see the contradictions in the Catholic carnal minded reading!

John 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For God the Father has placed His seal of approval on Him.” 28 Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29Jesus replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent.”…

That passage should be the first clue for an honest soul: the seekers after signs commit the same error that Moses had to deal with at the mountain, namely they wanted to know what they should do, how they could work to obtain eternal life. Jesus answered them by sweeping aside the human pride inherent in performing 'sacraments' to obtain eternal life. JESUS told them to believe and God in His Grace would give them eternal life. To believe, in that passage, is more than merely giving mental ascent, it contains a submission, and JESUS did not leave that out in His discourse with them:

John 6:30 So they asked Him, “What sign then will You perform, so that we may see it and believe You? What will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 “Sir, they said, “give us this bread” at all times. 35 Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.

With that teaching, Jesus made it clear that He was not speaking of carnal life but of SPIRITUAL LIFE! Given eternal life, those so born from above will never hunger or thirst again. Do you know of a group of Catholics who claim to be eating JESUS's body, blood, SOUL and DIVINITY who eat such once and never hunger or thirst again in their present bodies? ... Neither do I know of such a group. So, Catholics must be expecting to ingest something as they eat JESUS and drink HIS blood? What do they receive more than a wheat wafer (and wine perhaps)? Whatever it is it must be renewed with fealty to the Catholic sacraments. But in such fealty there is inherent pride of self for performing what the self counts as faithful striving. But that means the Catholic is then stroking his or her pride, reassuring self that they are doing enough to be worthy of eternal life.

But what did JESUS go on to say of the process of life following being born from above? Was it strict adherence to an institution's sacramental trail?

John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Perhaps you have noticed that JESUS has not commanded they eat His flesh and drink HIS blood, empahtically. HE has emphasized believing on HIM Whom GOD has sent for our salvation. Believing is an act of the will, not a function of the alimentary tract.

But the seekers after signs, the proud Jews insisting on working for eternal life then began to grumble, first questioning His statement that He came down from Heaven --they heard that part clearly-- as the ONE to give Life to the world. What sort of life could JESUS give these carnally alive proud folks? SPIRITUAL LIFE. And HE explicitly said it came by believing in HIM; believing in HIM as their source of LIFE eternal would make them consumers of The Bread come sown from Heaven, the REAL sustenance for LIFE eternal, not consumed by mouth, eating magically transform wafers, but by pointing the will to trust in Him, renewing their faith not their cells, by performing the remembrance of what He was about to do on that cruel tree then dying and rising from the dead to be their High Priest IN HEAVEN forever more.

But the Jews then insisted on taking ONLY a carnal perspective, so JESUS gave the metaphorical references a verily verily but in their carnal wording and they reject it and HIM! The seekers after signs chose the carnal perspective and turned away. The religion of Catholicism has chosen the same perspective, but have gone even more to the sdark side by embracing that which God had placed a prohibition upon, namely eating a persons flesh and drinking their blood.

To be sure, the reality is hidden in fancy ritual and 'sacred mystery' ( transubstantiation at a catholic priest's command? Come on! ), but it is when revealed nothing short of a blasphemy! The catholic ritual at once makes the god of Catholicism a duplicitous caprice, directed to and fro by a special class of 'priests', just as the pagans practiced.

So wat was the final lesson simplification that JESUS gave to those who did not turn away? ...

John 6:61 Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before? 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. ... 65 Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.” ... 67 So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” 68 Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Did you catch it? Simon knew what was the source of SPIRITUAL LIFE! He did not say, 'you have the flesh and blood we must eat! He pointed straight to the TRUTH he had just received in his heart, not his belly.

A comparison of the Mass as described by O’Brien in the Faith of Millioms and Henrews 9 and 10 refutes the RC position.

Re: John 6:35

35 Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst.

With that teaching, Jesus made it clear that He was not speaking of carnal life but of SPIRITUAL LIFE! Given eternal life, those so born from above will never hunger or thirst again.

This was already known by Old Testament Prophets, way back to Abrahamic time, as well as under the Law of Moses. While Moses wrote down the Torah books, Job was Aramaic (Gen. 10:23. 1 Chron 1:17) and God spoke to him directly in sleeping and waking visions (Job 33:14-20, 38:1).

Job 23:12, speaking of Jehovah and His Word, of which He is the Personification:

"Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food."

And Jeremiah, speaking of The Word, Jesus being its Giver and Personification (Jer. 15:16):

"Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts."

Ingesting and digesting His Words is the same as spiritually eating Him, kept alive in the Spirit by His Words, and becoming more like Him as we learn to be controlled by the Spirit, obeying The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The bread token of His Passion is remembering that His body, once and for all time offered as sacrifice, has sanctified once and for all each who put all their trust in Him:

"By the which will¹ we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once² for all" (Heb. 10:10 AV).

"For by one³ offering he hath perfected⁴ for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb 10:14 AV).

Notes:

1 = the Will, the First Covenant, of The Father

2 = ἐφάπαξ (ephapax); a strengthened form of hapax (translated once) such that it is once, for all time, forever, not to be repeated.

3 = the one offering upon the cross, not many, of which truly redeemed believers remember the occasion till He comes.

4 = τελειόω (teleioō); carried through to completion, once sanctified at the moment of salvation and justification of an individual by faith alone in Christ alone, by foreknowledge happening at the Cross.

That video turned my eyes in circles. 😀

There were Sacraments---- instituted by Christ --- before Peter and Paul even got to Rome. I love every clue I can get about this history.

Oh; me TOO!

Got any Scripture showing these 'instituted sacraments'?