Posted on 11/02/2015 6:56:55 AM PST by Salvation
All Souls’ Day by Jakub Schikaneder, 1888
I have blogged before on Purgatory. Here is a link to one of those blogs: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also written more extensively on its biblical roots here: PDF Document on Purgatory.
On this Feast of All Souls, I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of Purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to consider it in terms of promise, purity, and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises made to them perfected in Purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and we know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.
What is the promise that points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. In this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.
St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace. Her account of it is related in her Dialogue, and is summarized in the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:
The Soul in the State of Grace– Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. †My father,†she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.†[1].
Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.
So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?†God has made you a promise. But what if that promise has not yet been fulfilled and you were to die today, without the divine perfection you have been promised having been completed? I can only speak for myself and say that if I were to die today, though I am not aware of any mortal sin, I also know that I am not perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of our heavenly Father!
But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper! St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion (Phil 1:6). Hence, if I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that He has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I also have a long way to go. God is very holy and His perfection is beyond imagining.
Yes, there are many things in us that need purging: sin, attachment to sin, clinging to worldly things, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows, and disappointments. We cannot take any of this with us to Heaven. If we did, it wouldn’t be Heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to His promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested so that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. And Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).
Purgatory has to be—gold, pure gold; refined, perfect, pure gold. Purgatory has to be, if God’s promises are to hold.
Catholic theology has always taken seriously God’s promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice by the grace of God.
Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because the perfection promised to us is real: esse quam videri (to be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin, and sorrow. Having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter Heaven, of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).
How could it be anything less? Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on Jesus’ promise and on the power of His blood to accomplish complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity; this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises, not mere punishment. There’s an old Gospel hymn that I referenced in yesterday’s blog for the Feast of All Saints that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and a half won’t do!â€
That’s right, ninety-nine and a half won’t do. Nothing less than a hundred is possible because we have Jesus’ promise and the wonderful working power of the precious Blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, Purgatory has to be.
In the sense that it makes one a law breaker, though there are different degrees of sin and of accountability and punishment. Losing one's temper is not the same as adultery, yet as said, while nothing unclean with enter the Heavenly City just as no unclean soul can have communion with God now, it is by true faith in the Lord Jesus to save the damned and destitute sinner by His sinless shed blood that a believer is both spiritually with God now and will be after this life.
In response to so great salvation believers are exhorted to practical perfection now, not as a requirement to be with God before that. Thanks be to God.
To be clear it’s clear in the Greek that the pronoun/verb phrase “you are” in verse 9 is the second person plural, so it’s clear that St Paul is addressing the entire church at Corinth when he says “you are God’s building”. It’s still immaterial though because verses 13-15 speak of an individual trial by fire.
The problem really stems from the usage of hemera in verse 13, which as even Strongs says can (and does in other places) mean the day of judgment (by God). In other words the time every man dies.
The problem is that the preponderance of commentaries (on the Internet at least) insist as Mr Rogers has, that essentially this “day” hÄ“mera) in verse 13 is a “future” day yes but it’s a day in the future life of every believer where, sometime while still on earth, each person’s faith will be tested, and that which is true will remain that which is in error will be consumed (or destroyed)
The Catholic translations translate hemera in verse 13 as “day of the Lord”, at least some do, but I haven’t been able to find any Catholic commentaries for a balance to the Protestsant ones I’ve found. Of course commentaries are just that, commentaries, not Scripture. So they can only go so far. Really of course, again, the question comes down to wether or not one accepts the authority of the Catholic Church and her ability to teach authoritatively.
Note that in Heb 9:27, the word hemera is not used for that “judgement”, rather we read there that “it is appointed for man to die once then the judgement”, there the word for “judgement” is krisis not hÄ“mera. Just for everyone’s information.
RCs invoke Revelation 21:27: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth" which would be mpurities, and we are told that we must "actually be perfect as the Father is perfect" "having the perfection of our heavenly Father," thus to have "impurities" means sinful fallen character. Which even a new baptized RC still has though RCs say such would go to be directly with God if they died right then, as do martyred believers.
Nothing unclean with enter the Heavenly City just as no unclean soul can have communion with God now, but it is by true faith in the Lord Jesus to save the damned and destitute sinner by His sinless shed blood that a believer already has direct access into the holy of holies (Heb. 10:19) and is accepted in Christ and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, (Eph. 1:6;2:6) and will be with Him at death or His return, (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17) which is what the entire church was told in the first century.
In addition, desperately trying to invoke 1Cor. 3 for purgatory is disallowed because as said, souls are saved despite of this loss, and which does not occur until the Lord's return! (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)
So you should stop charging evangelicals with slander on this point,
Consider the sources of such and what they must to defend.
If you don't want to do that then you need to be prepared for the conversation. This is Free Republic.....not the huffington post or some other liberal site.
That is unless you're attempting to post for bait purposes which would be rather disingenuous on your part.
Wow. Some Catholics have thin skin. Good thing Paul wasn’t like some catholics.
The sacrifice of Christ was insufficient??
I’m not going to rehash the entire discussion on this thread. See my post 302 for my final thoughts on the matter (for now) and also note I still plan to visit a cemetery this weekend to pray for the souls in Purgatory, to obtain the indulgence for them Benedict XVIth issued in 2005 (which is still in effect, as far as I can see. If not I’d appreciate some Catholic telling me so so I won’t waste a trip there).
The fact that the text(s) used for apologetic purposes, with regards to Purgatory, are not as strong as I originally thought is of little concern to me. It doesn’t positively show they *cant* be used for such a purpose, and it certainly doesn’t necessarily demonstrate the dogma of Purgatory is false.
Certainly I’m grateful for the education I’ve received on this thread the truth is never a bad thing.
I do find it interesting that Paul in several places says “I’m not lying”. He must have had his detractors, lol. Today there are still some who muse that he was a liar. I’m convinced he was not and has words for us from the Lord, authoritative words, not second hand ones (commentaries, the CCC, etc.).
But hasn’t the believer in Christ been promised they would not undergo judgment by Christ in John 5:24?
“It’s still immaterial though because verses 13-15 speak of an individual trial by fire.”
No, it does not. First, it is an ANALOGY. Paul compares the church to a building, and compares the ministry of himself, and Apollos and others to the work done on a building. He says some build with materials that last, and others do not.
He then says when the building is burned, the stone remains - but the straw is burned. And thus the fire “will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value.”
On Judgment, God will reveal to all if a minister did his work well, or if he did it in a worldly manner. There is no real fire. Why? Because it is a word picture, a parable. It gives a vivid illustration that shows we must take care to do God’s work in God’s way, so that what we do for God has permanent value - which it only has when it is done IAW God’s will.
If Joel Osteen is a Christian (which I doubt), then he is undoubtedly building with straw. Many praise him now, and he has a huge ‘church’. But on Judgment, God will reveal how many of the church members were actually changed, how many were actually saved, and what (if anything) Osteen preaches that God agrees with.
” Jesus gave them this illustration but they did not grasp the point of what he was saying to them. So Jesus said to them once more, “I do assure you that I myself am the door for the sheep. All who have gone before me are like thieves and rogues, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If a man goes in through me, he will be safe and sound...”
Jesus was not saying he was made of wood and swung both ways! It is a word picture, meant to illustrate (and thus teach) something that is true. It is not literal.
“Then, on the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If any man is thirsty, he can come to me and drink! The man who believes in me, as the scripture says, will have rivers of living water flowing from his inmost heart.” (Here he was speaking about the Spirit which those who believe in him would receive. The Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)”
Jesus didn’t mean Christians would start squirting water out of their hearts. It was a word picture, meant to illustrate a truth.
“For we are partners working together for God, and you are God’s field.
You are also God’s building. 10 Using the gift that God gave me, I did the work of an expert builder and laid the foundation, and someone else is building on it. But each of you must be careful how you build. 11 For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation, and no other foundation can be laid. 12 Some will use gold or silver or precious stones in building on the foundation; others will use wood or grass or straw. 13 And the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it.”
A word picture, meant to illustrate a particular truth - that ministers are supposed to work for God and under God, and we are to focus on God and not the individual worker - AND that workers need to make sure they are doing what the Boss wants!
Nor is it an individual trial by fire. The INDIVIDUAL is not burned, nor is he judged, if he is a christian! But - at it flat out says it! - “the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it”.
It cannot be made any clearer. There is no need for interpretation, since Paul is very explicit. It is very, very simple. Any child can read it and know what Paul meant.
“Really of course, again, the question comes down to wether or not one accepts the authority of the Catholic Church and her ability to teach authoritatively.”
Really, it comes down to this: Does the Word of God override the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Do the words of the Apostles and of Jesus carry more weight than the doctrine of Popes?
Unhappily, those who remain Catholic must accept the doctrine of the Catholic Church and ignore the plain and explicit teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
You will notice that rccs have a problem understanding John.
I’m going to take my own advice I gave to Salvation and Biggirl earlier and just stop right now. I see no profit in continuing the same round about that’s been going on here (FR) for literally years. I find it amazing though that you, Mr Rogers actually believe that the “day” in verse 13 is indeed the Jugement of Christ yet STILL insist that when the works that are burned away, this isn’t a trial of the individual himself just his works. What else happens on Jugement Day other than a judgment OF the INDIVIDUAL. Sheesh.
I mean really think about it for a second: if someone goes through a trial in life that causes them to change something about their faith that’s going to be a “painful” experience some might even call it, colloquially “trial by fire”! Forget it.
Catholics don’t say Purgatory is a “firely place” filled with literal “fire” by the way. We fully acknowledge that that’s imagery a metaphor of the kind of purification that occurs at that time. There’s nothing in any dogmatic teaching that says it’s definitely fire or that it’s even for a long time it could indeed be instantaneous. The dogma itself only says that the purgation is a purgation of the individual, cleansing him of any venial sin and any attachment to sin. In fact the most likely source of any pain there is continued separation from God not any literal fire. But speaking of literal fire continue to construct strawmen and burn them in effegy, because that’s all the claim “Purgatory claims to use literal fire to burn away sin” is, a strawman.
It’s immaterial the apologetic texts don’t exactly describe Purgatory. They were never claimed to do so (by the Church) but the concept is there, especially if one concedes the point that the word “day” in verse 13 is one’s day of Judgement before the Lord!
“yet STILL insist that when the works that are burned away, this isn’t a trial of the individual himself just his works.”
Ummm...because that is what the text says?
“And the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it”.
You write: “What else happens on Jugement Day other than a judgment OF the INDIVIDUAL. Sheesh.”
What Jesus said: “Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son.”
What Paul said: “There is no condemnation now for those who live in union with Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit, which brings us life in union with Christ Jesus, has set me free from the law of sin and death...Who will accuse God’s chosen people? God himself declares them not guilty! Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of God, pleading with him for us!”
The writer of Hebrews said, “With one sacrifice, then, he has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin...And then he says, ‘I will not remember their sins and evil deeds any longer.’ So when these have been forgiven, an offering to take away sins is no longer needed.
1 Cor. 3:9 says otherwise.
Context is your friend...Context is everything...
Post 254 covers it nicely...
Did the apostle Paul build the foundation for your body??? Of course not...So he has to be talking about different things here...
your religion is guilty of taking a group of verses of scripture, removing what it perceives as key words, creates a new verse out of those key words and call it doctrine...
Mr Rogers: Those verses do not exist.
you are God' s building. [...] If any man' s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man' s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:9, 14-15)
It left us imperfectly purified
The work of Christ continues in Purgatory.
There’s a lot going on in your post, but that whirlwind of competing ideas (not yours) about HOW a person is made right with God puts us in a real pickle. If baptism is when IT happens, and subsequent sins end us up back at Square One, why wouldn’t God just kill us as we come up from the waters?
Stupid, I know, but real people get really messed up by confused teaching. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will harden whom I choose to harden” is one my favorite bottom lines from God that blow up all the baloney about “merit”.
It doesn’t say how they washed their robes white.
So therefore Christians -- "every man" is both a builder and a building. You created a division Paul did not contemplate.
In any case, verse 15 does NOT suggest the man is the building.
Riiight. I don't know about sectants, but Catholic read the Holy Bible in complete passages, not verse by verse. On this issue, verse 9 said "you are God's building" and so do verses 16-17 ("you are the temple of God").
Hello. We needed air.
From the Catechism:
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness." 134
We evangelicals would hold that there is no valid distinction between mortal and venial sin, that all of it must be accounted for under the blood of the Lamb of God, or else there's Hell to pay.
There is a distinction of all four: mortal sin not absolved, mortal sin absolved, venial sin absolved, venial sin not absolved. Purgatory cleanses the impurities left by the last four. The work of Christ on the Cross continues in purgatory.
When you see me barging on an evangelical thread about stuff you want to talk about, and posting disruptions from my Catholic point of view, then please tell me what you guys believe. At this point I am one telling you what Catholics believe, on the topic you chose to inquire about.
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